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[cephalo]

I tried searching to see what's been said recently, but there's too many ways to say that ranged combat is waaaay too decisive. If Toady cuts the firing rate of ranged weapons to about one fourth of what it is currently, I think that's all that needs to happen.

I'm thinking that marksdwarf should be best placed on walls where they cannot be rushed by melee. I'm sure most of you have seen a single marksdwarf machine-gun whole squads of goblins before they can close in for melee. We all know that's not right.

I'm thinking this is an easy change, and should be in next release. Has anyone heard anything?

[Danarca]

I can tell by some of your questions, and from having seen a lot of questions in my time, that you haven't read the dev log.

Toady is revamping the whole biological structure in the next release.
So if a marksdwarf were to shoot towards the heart of an enemy, it would first have to piece the armor, the clothing, the skin, the flesh, the heart tissue and then finally it would pierce the heart.

From these changes marksdwarves will be less of the killing machines they are right now, as for a speed change, maybe, I saw a couple of months ago that he were balancing the different weapons to the biological layers change.

[smjjames]

The 'Magic Arrow' that people encounter in adventure mode should be nonexistent.

Although given the fact that the new Titans and Forgotten Beasts will likely have some strange anatomy, it could still appear, but as a result of the strange anatomy.

Still, if it does happen where it shouldn't, we will have the detailed combat logs to help figure it out.

As for the marksdwarves, if there are enough of them, not much can survive a hail of bolts. Theres a reason why archers were often feared in history.

[Bricks]

From el devlog gigante:

though during a brief time while fixing that the crossbows started shooting me in completely half (because the contact area was being miscalculated -- it was more like they were firing giant saws or something).

There are still a few things I really want to do before I move out of combat. One of them is a further nerfing of ranged weapons, at least to the extent I can mess with it now (I can't do much about firing rate yet)

I had somebody shoot my toe off with a crossbow, which was cool, because it was after the slash vs. pierce merge. It just happened that the toe was narrow enough to be removed.

The most significant addition today was an overall notion of a "square" shot, so that, say, a crossbow bolt can hit full force but just not break a bone because it didn't have a line on the center of the part. Attacks with better relative rolls and relative contact areas are more likely to get a chance to hit all of the tissues, and only strikes that hit all of the tissues get a chance at driving through a path of organs as well.

It's safe to say Toady is aware and adjusting it appropriately.

[cephalo]

Massed archers and crossbowmen are to be feared indeed, but currently even a single markdwarf/marksgoblin is to be feared, almost more than any other creature in the game. Yes, I have read the dev logs over the past year, and I remember some stuff was said about it but it is difficult to search for. I'm not convinced at all that the tissue layers etc. will protect against bolts, nor should they.

A crossbow bolt can kill a heavily armored enemy, no doubt about it, but at 2 rounds per second, even if you miss half the time, the kill ratio for ranged vs. melee is seven to one at 10 meters. Clearly, it's the firing rate that is way out of whack, and that has to be the easiest thing in the world to fix.

I'm not seeing it in the to do list, and that's why I'm asking. I know it has been discussed but not recently.

[cephalo]

From el devlog gigante:

though during a brief time while fixing that the crossbows started shooting me in completely half (because the contact area was being miscalculated -- it was more like they were firing giant saws or something).

There are still a few things I really want to do before I move out of combat. One of them is a further nerfing of ranged weapons, at least to the extent I can mess with it now (I can't do much about firing rate yet)

I had somebody shoot my toe off with a crossbow, which was cool, because it was after the slash vs. pierce merge. It just happened that the toe was narrow enough to be removed.

The most significant addition today was an overall notion of a "square" shot, so that, say, a crossbow bolt can hit full force but just not break a bone because it didn't have a line on the center of the part. Attacks with better relative rolls and relative contact areas are more likely to get a chance to hit all of the tissues, and only strikes that hit all of the tissues get a chance at driving through a path of organs as well.

It's safe to say Toady is aware and adjusting it appropriately.

Excellent! Thank you

[Footkerchief]

I want to emphasize that firing rates are only changing insofar as the skill/attribute system has changed.  It's possible that you'll see marksdwarves gaining skill much more slowly, but a legendary marksdwarf will probably still shoot at about the same rate.

The firing rate annoys the crap out of me too, but apparently rates/speeds are a can of worms that he isn't ready to open yet.

[MrGimp]

I dont know why everyone is so against marksdwarves.  I *like* that they can kill a legendary.  Nothing else can.  The problem isnt that markswarves need to be toned down, it's that everything else needs to be toned up.  I want goblin axemen to be able to actually kill a dwarven axe lord every now and again.  The ONLY challenge right now for a mature fortress comes from bolts....and everyone wants this nerfed. 

Our dwares are SUPPOSED to die people!!!     

[Footkerchief]

I don't want crossbows nerfed so that my dwarves will stay alive, I want them nerfed so that I can use markdwarves without totally wrecking the game.

[MrGimp]

See...I never noticed this problem.  Legendary axe lords are FAR superior to marksdwarves.  In my fortresses marksdwarves die off early.  Axe dwarves do too, at first, but once they get legendary wrestling and shield user they start becoming WAY superior to the marksdwarves.  Any legendary axelord can take down an entire invading army all by himself.  Even if they have bolts.  Ive never had a marksdwarf who could do that...unless he was on top of a wall sitting next to a bolt stockpile, and the only entrance to the fort was right under him.

Thats a lot of conditions that need to be met to make these guys uber.  Meanwhile, you can throw axe lords right into the thick of things repeatedly and never take a scratch.

[cephalo]

See...I never noticed this problem.  Legendary axe lords are FAR superior to marksdwarves.  In my fortresses marksdwarves die off early.  Axe dwarves do too, at first, but once they get legendary wrestling and shield user they start becoming WAY superior to the marksdwarves.  Any legendary axelord can take down an entire invading army all by himself.  Even if they have bolts.  Ive never had a marksdwarf who could do that...unless he was on top of a wall sitting next to a bolt stockpile, and the only entrance to the fort was right under him.

Thats a lot of conditions that need to be met to make these guys uber.  Meanwhile, you can throw axe lords right into the thick of things repeatedly and never take a scratch.

A legendary axe lord owning the field vs. the usual goblin rabble is fun. However, I have also seen a recruit with a crossbow get ambushed and still kill the whole party of ambushing goblins if it has no bowmen. The usual result of getting hit with a bolt is to double over in pain, and that gives the marksman another shot.

I bet your legendary axelord in steel armor would die if an elite goblin bowman showed up. In fact he might take out a couple of your legendary axelords if you let him take a few shots.

[MrGimp]

Nah.  My axe lords have become so legendary by now that they routinely slaughter gobbo bow squads.  Legendary shield user and wrestling means they dodge most arrows.  The arrows that hit still dont always do mortal damage.

I've lost 2-3 legendary axe lords to gobbo arrows in 40 years at Blockedlance.  But I like that they died.  Its my opinion that a legendary goblin bowman SHOULD be able to kill a legendary dwarf every now and again.  That (to me) isnt the problem.  The problem is that the legendary gobbo melee fighter CANT kill a legendary dwarf EVER. 

I've given melee units attacks of 30,000, and they can barely yellow a toe.  I don't think the solution is to nerf ranged units to this level of incompetence.  I hope we see melee get a boost, not ranged getting a nerf.

[Sunday]

I don't have Footkerchief's search-fu, but I'm pretty sure that because of the skill & attribute caps he mentioned, legendary goblins (and elves, and humans, and kobolds.  Well, maybe not kobolds) will be a threat to legendary dwarfs.

[cephalo]

I have indeed seen stories about goblin kings getting huge skills in world-gen that were able to wipe out whole dwarf armies, and that's very rare unfortunately, but all of that is completely beside the point. The problem here is that a single novice marksdwarf can machine-gun down a large number of similarly skilled melee enemies without being touched in the open field, all without protection of any kind, even armor, due to the extremely fast reloading time.

The fact that bolts can kill and stun is all good! We want that, but think about how long it would take to load a crossbow... If crossbows could fire like a Garand semi-auto, there would have never been a need for spears, maces, swords or any sort of melee weapon. Indeed that is WWII technology.

[Bricks]

I dont know why everyone is so against marksdwarves.  I *like* that they can kill a legendary.  Nothing else can.  The problem isnt that markswarves need to be toned down, it's that everything else needs to be toned up.  I want goblin axemen to be able to actually kill a dwarven axe lord every now and again.  The ONLY challenge right now for a mature fortress comes from bolts....and everyone wants this nerfed. 

Our dwares are SUPPOSED to die people!!!     

There is another game mode.