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Author Topic: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges  (Read 22552 times)

PorkRolls

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A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« on: January 01, 2010, 03:59:14 pm »

Make underground farming require constant refertilization. First season's free, though.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 05:05:54 pm by PorkRolls »
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Grek

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2010, 09:14:07 pm »

I like this suggestion and would like to subscribe to it's newsletter.
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darkflagrance

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 09:50:50 pm »

Then desert and tundra fortresses would effectively be screwed farming-wise due to lack of trees. Good or bad?
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silhouette

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2010, 10:17:45 pm »

well if he have this then we must be able to make fertalizer out of crap.
and to get crap we have to allow crap to be implimented into the game...
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PorkRolls

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2010, 12:25:38 am »

That's already implemented: why do you think Dwarves leave seeds on their chairs when they're done eating?
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Andeerz

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 01:33:31 am »

That's already implemented: why do you think Dwarves leave seeds on their chairs when they're done eating?

Hahahahaha!

About the idea of requiring fertilization in general, though:

Frikkin' great idea!!!  I'm all for it!!!  And it doesn't need to be poop, though it would probably be the best...  And potash can already be used as a fertilizer, though potash only provides one of the major crop nutrients.  Potash provides potassium, though other fertilizers would be needed for providing the other two major plant nutrients, nitrogen and phosphate.  I doubt, though, that dwarfs in the setting of DF would know about nutrient requirements of plants in so far as individual chemicals are concerned.

According to a brief, uncited blurb in the fertilizer article in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer#History) even slag and cinders were used in fertilizer, which would be dwarfy.  However, the wikipedia articles dealing with fertilizer are woefully lacking in citations as well as history prior to the agricultural revolution.  I will need to research the history of fertilizer some more.

Also, about desert and tundra fortresses being effectively screwed: so what, says I.  It would make it more challenging, more realistic, and spice up the game in a way that isn't introducing some arbitrary, contrived game mechanic for the sake of making the game more complicated.  Deserts and tundra are too hospitable as is, anyway, methinks, and if this game is setting out to be a simulator of civilizational/economic development and siege warfare, better simulated farming is a must.  Plus, if more realistic crop management is included, it's not like it couldn't be made to be turned off by the user if it's a possible game-breaker for those who don't care as much about the simulation aspects of the game, which is understandable.

As for introducing poop in general, I think it should be done, eventually, I think.  But that's a whole different thread right there and the AI is not going to be good enough to effectively implement that for a while...


   
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Grek

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2010, 02:39:16 am »

Then desert and tundra fortresses would effectively be screwed farming-wise due to lack of trees. Good or bad?

Underground forests are going in next version, so you would have to have a desert/tundra without any underground forest chambers in order to have absolutely no wood growing on the map. And, even then, there would still be trade.

Eventually, other sorts of fertilizer such as manure, compost, river silt and dead animals can be added.
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darkflagrance

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2010, 04:58:31 am »

Then desert and tundra fortresses would effectively be screwed farming-wise due to lack of trees. Good or bad?

Underground forests are going in next version, so you would have to have a desert/tundra without any underground forest chambers in order to have absolutely no wood growing on the map. And, even then, there would still be trade.

Eventually, other sorts of fertilizer such as manure, compost, river silt and dead animals can be added.

If underground wood replaces above-ground wood to that extent, then your fortress is self-sufficient anyway, so how does this do anything more than make farming more difficult? In other words, it really has little/no relationship to siege difficulty at all.
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Foehamster

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2010, 12:33:51 pm »

Make underground farming require constant refertilization. First season's free, though.

Sounds good as long as flooding counts as fertilization.  It would make breaking sieges to let caravans through very important unless the fort had a water source.

Tower cap farms and wild underground vegetation already require a nearby pool of water or flooding to grow so they shouldn't be affected.
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Loyal

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2010, 12:35:33 pm »

Would allowing farm plots to fallow one season per year be sufficient? Or perhaps growing a specific type of crop (for instance, growing legumes in above-ground farms to help restore nutrients to the soil)?

Besides, if you have enough animals and manage them correctly, farms become obsolete (as far as bare necessities are concerned) for anything other than booze.

I see what you're trying to do here - make attrition on supplies an actual part of sieges - but I get the feeling one would have to change a LOT more than just farming to achieve that.
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Aldaris

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2010, 05:03:51 pm »

It is still a step in the right direction, and I feel it should be implemented.
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Dwarf

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 05:15:50 pm »

Hmmm... I'm leaning on both sides. For one, it would make farming less the perpetual fool proof food source it is now, and make fishing, hunting and trapping more viable (if these were tweaked a bit). On the other side, I tend to be a lazy bastard which relies on farming and just builds some plots then and when and sets crops.
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Niveras

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 08:45:42 pm »

As far as fertilizer is concerned, you could also add some reactions to turn otherwise useless chunks from butchering into potash (or an interim material, then potash).

Of course, if you're relying on farming for food, you probably won't have much butchering going on to create chunks.

I like the idea of being able to flood the tiles to fertilize them (especially from an underground river, which would theoretically be higher in minerals).

Since making farming more complex is going to require code changes anyway, making fishing (from rivers especially) and, to a lesser extent, hunting better long-term or more viable solutions would be nice as well.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 08:52:05 pm by Niveras »
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PsyberianHusky

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2010, 06:37:32 am »


Of course, if you're relying on farming for food, you probably won't have much butchering going on to create chunks.


Cats are a never ending resource.

Anyway I wold rather have acrualy challenging sieges, but I do like the pressure this would bring.
While we are at it, crop rotation .
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dakenho

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Re: A simple and realistic way to add challenge back to sieges
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2010, 10:13:44 am »

you could remove your iron anvil at loading screen and bring a crap load of wood.  than trade pigtails or rock crafts the second year for one.  I do not think this will make the game much harder with the updates coming but would add to the realism of the game,  as a draw back it adds to the learning brick wall this game already has.  technically re-flooding the farming room through flood gates should add new soil and thus no fertilization needed.

as a thought for how this could work you should be able to burn withered or left over crops/use dead enemies/animals. 
Personally I would rather see milking done and hunter improvements first (so hunters can carry two stacks of bolts like soldiers and work with there hunting dogs better).  though do not get me wrong all and all this is a good idea
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