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Hot...keys? I have to stare at the list for hours to find what to build/designate.  I am still in babysteps and therefore don't get a real say here.

1 (0.4%)

Keyboard is slow and clunky, I hardly ever use it. I use the mouse whenever possible and if I cannot use it I make a new suggestions thread.

9 (3.7%)

I never touch the mouse, and even if I did it wouldn't make anything easier or faster. Keyboard4lyf!

116 (47.7%)

I use keyboard and mouse together in harmony. I also hug trees and eat dead bodies.

70 (28.8%)

I am too unique to fit into any of these foolish attempts at polling choices. Good day to you sir.

47 (19.3%)

Total Members Voted: 243

[Dakk]

I find using the mouse to play DF annoying, probably because I never use fullscreen mode and missclicking cuase  totally mess up my designations. Plus I got used to using the keyboard to do everything, all it takes is a little time to get used to the hotkeys. Its fast, its simple and I can easily do it while I do other stuff on firefox and MSN.

[Retro]

But replacing the keyboard with mouse actions I am heavily against. I use the keyboard system way faster and more comfortably than I ever could with the mouse.

Well then you have nothing to worry about, because I've never seen anyone advocate that.

90% of the menus in dwarf fortress need to be replaced with mouse interfaces. Remembering every last key is literally impossible. Not joking, it's actually impossible. Maybe not for like two people. I'm talking overwhelming majority. Not that they will save a majority of newbies any struggling time.

-

Though, to be fair, he probably didn't mean replaced so much as adding mouse compatibility... but I haven't read much 'keyboard vs. mouse' stuff in general, so in case there were others who've argued for the keyboard setup to be replaced, I thought I'd cover my bases.

[Footkerchief]

Fair enough.  Toady would never remove the keyboard shortcuts, at any rate.  He mentioned that he likes them in the latest DF Talk when they were talking about mouse interfaces.

[Sukasa]

I use the keyboard almost exclusively, but I still use the mouse for some designations if it's faster.

[dyze]

Guys. I am terribly confused. Everywhere I look, I see: "I want better mouse support" and "The interface sucks", rarely actually saying specifically what is that they want.
What I am asking is how come for the entire time I've been playing DF (after the learning stage) these thoughts have never crossed my mind? Is it mainly the newer players wanting to use the mouse, or is it the fully "I know every hotkey" people like me? 

What are the mouse features that you all seem to kick and scream for? I can only think of three ways that the mouse could be used:

• Clicking on a dwarf or buildings in normal play to (v), (k) or (q) them
• Placement of buildings (in a standard RTS style "click button, building placement follows mouse as well as click-move-click for wall placement)
  
• Clicking and dragging out designations, stockpiles and zones.

Is this what it is that you all want feel free to add some more points.
..

what i fail to understand is how you can be so about this topic ..have you never played civilization? or sim city? the settlers?
how annoying wouldnt any of those games be with keyboard only support..
i cant even see how this is a topic, how can you not see the benefits of using a mouse (eg right click for context sensitive menus)?

[Savok]

90% of the menus in dwarf fortress need to be replaced with mouse interfaces. Remembering every last key is literally impossible. Not joking, it's actually impossible. Maybe not for like two people. I'm talking overwhelming majority. Not that they will save a majority of newbies any struggling time.

They should still list the hotkey, after the name of course.

We also need a point and click (and click again) method of designating a length of wall too.

I must be one of those keyboard savants mentioned by eerr. I've yet to find a time when I needed to check the DF window to find a hotkey, but all too often I stare at my keyboard for 10+ minutes thinking "where the f- did my key go?". I need to get better at this whole knowing my keyboard nonsense.

At last, I've found my pair - the only other user of Dwarf Fortress who uses the keyboard all the time with ease!
Well, to be fair, I do look at the hotkey list for obscure buildings that I rarely build. But that's it.

More seriously, there actually are a lot of us. Back in the elden days, when the world was flat and flooded in fire, and it was a sport to slay boats in cold blood, we arcane masters of the "KeyBoard" roamed the fora and did dominate. Then, the world changed and was made anew, and mortals flooded the lands, sometimes learning from the masters and becoming like us, but more often begging for their god to give aid and support to Mus Computorus, a crutch that aided those who would or could not learn the ways of the ancients.

[CobaltKobold]

(Worldpainter has no keyboard support whatever. It's odd.)

I don't need the mouse, but it makes designating stairway shafts much quicker, among other things. (Hold mouse1, >, rather than {enter enter >}*N)

[Julius Clonkus]

I use keyboard and mouse, both of it. I can't be arsed to make complex designations with a lot of button presses.

I use keyboard and mouse together in harmony. I also hug trees and eat dead bodies.: 29%

OMG! So many elves among dwarves! Armok save us!

I'm not hugging the trees. I'm practicing to crush 'em with my arms. I won't actually do that until I hit legendary, though. Then I can make ☼Wooden Toothpick☼s at a low price. And I like my kitten roasts which SHOULD be considered a cut-apart dead body. On the other hand, everything reproduces with spores, so they're actually mushrooms...?

[Jiri Petru]

Mouse support does not equal user friendliness.

Even if you suddenly make everything in Dwarf Fortress controllable by mouse, the interface would still be useless and I suppose hardly anyone would use the mouse. To be able to use mouse, the whole interface needs to be redone from scratch... this time thinking about buttons, menus, arrangement, "ergonomy" etc. Mouse interface is first and above all visual interface - you need to be able to visually differentiate between items, you have to see them and remember their place on the screen, they have to be arranged in logical places.

The current menu is unusable to anyone - people just remember keyboard shortcuts and then turn the menu off. I can't even imagine I'd click on the items in the menu. It's actually easier to remember them all than trying to use them visually. The usefulness of the in-game menu can be compared to a list of hotkeys you print out and lie down next to your computer.

---

What this means: yeah, I'd love proper interface with mouse support. But mouse support by itself won't really make a difference. That's the reason why everyone responds "mouse wouldn't be faster" in the poll.

[sonerohi]

90% of the menus in dwarf fortress need to be replaced with mouse interfaces. Remembering every last key is literally impossible. Not joking, it's actually impossible. Maybe not for like two people. I'm talking overwhelming majority. Not that they will save a majority of newbies any struggling time.

They should still list the hotkey, after the name of course.

We also need a point and click (and click again) method of designating a length of wall too.

I must be one of those keyboard savants mentioned by eerr. I've yet to find a time when I needed to check the DF window to find a hotkey, but all too often I stare at my keyboard for 10+ minutes thinking "where the f- did my key go?". I need to get better at this whole knowing my keyboard nonsense.

At last, I've found my pair - the only other user of Dwarf Fortress who uses the keyboard all the time with ease!
Well, to be fair, I do look at the hotkey list for obscure buildings that I rarely build. But that's it.

More seriously, there actually are a lot of us. Back in the elden days, when the world was flat and flooded in fire, and it was a sport to slay boats beasts in cold blood, we arcane masters of the "KeyBoard" roamed the fora and did dominate. Then, the world changed and was made anew, and mortals flooded the lands, sometimes learning from the masters and becoming like us, but more often begging for their god to give aid and support to Mus Computorus, a crutch that aided those who would or could not learn the ways of the ancients.

I like the wisdom in this mans words. Slay all boats!

[Roxorius]

Ask the people here, and they'll tell you that DF has the perfect interface and the keyboard is awesome. They wouldn't be here, otherwise.

Ask normal people, and they'll whimper at the thought of accomplishing anything with the current interface and lack of mouse support.

DF is synonymous with poor controls in many gaming circles.

[jokermatt999]

Ask the people here, and they'll tell you that DF has the perfect interface and the keyboard is awesome. They wouldn't be here, otherwise.

Ask normal people, and they'll whimper at the thought of accomplishing anything with the current interface and lack of mouse support.

DF is synonymous with poor controls in many gaming circles.

Exactly. I think most people here are too used to the controls to consider just how obtuse they are. The first step is realizing that you actually have a problem, and I think too many people see the (legitimate) criticism of DF's interface as an attack on the game. Also, yes, keyboard shortcuts are a faster way to navigate menus. No, no one is trying to take them away. However, we need some less confusing interface for new people. Currently, you basically have to either use a tutorial, or just mash buttons until you figure out how jobs work. This is not how interfaces should work, at all. I love DF, but something needs to be done about the interface.

[Mike Mayday]

I have started playing the game about half a year before the release of the 3D version. To this day I encounter (frequently!) moments when I have to spend a large amount of time navigating the interface in search of the desired function/item when a better organization and proper mouse support would substantially reduce this time. I can understand that some people don't have a problem with it or they have memorized all the hotkeys to such an extent that it's no longer inconvenient. What bothers me is that they fail to see that improving the interface could increase the player base by hundreds of percent which means more money for Toady.
I'm sorry if it sounds like a personal attack but that just seems selfish to me, because it sounds like you'd rather that Toady works on more features for the already existing player base than improve the game in such a way that more people can enjoy it and Toady can get the money he deserves.

[Kav]

Exactly. I think most people here are too used to the controls to consider just how obtuse they are. The first step is realizing that you actually have a problem, and I think too many people see the (legitimate) criticism of DF's interface as an attack on the game. Also, yes, keyboard shortcuts are a faster way to navigate menus. No, no one is trying to take them away. However, we need some less confusing interface for new people. Currently, you basically have to either use a tutorial, or just mash buttons until you figure out how jobs work. This is not how interfaces should work, at all. I love DF, but something needs to be done about the interface.

It's obviously not perfect. On better organization I couldn't agree with you more. Whether it be some sort of logical organization, just alphabetical, or even consistent in it's randomness. Anything would be better than the way some of the menus are set up now. And some just don't have enough hot keys.

I can't agree on the interface feeling "obtuse" however. I figured out the numpad intricacies within 2 minutes of trying the game (back in 2d) and thought that it was damn clever the way toady laid it out. But then some people try pressing all the buttons and others feel a need to be told how to do things. It feels like a curses interface, which I use all the time, just with extra buttons. Most windows plebs however have not had the luxury.

One thing that would help a lot would be the job manager "type what you want" on every menu. Imagine that, the ability to type out whatever you wanted and watch it real-time filter out entries that don't match, in every menu. Example:
at a metalsmith's forge type
/iron spear
and then suddenly the only thing you see on the menu is iron spear without saying q-iron-weapon-spear with the keypad. This would be spectacular on multi-tiered menu's with too many options for hotkeys(forge,glass,craft,leather).
It's my #1 wish-list feature.

90% of the menus in dwarf fortress need to be replaced with mouse interfaces. Remembering every last key is literally impossible. Not joking, it's actually impossible. Maybe not for like two people. I'm talking overwhelming majority. Not that they will save a majority of newbies any struggling time.

The[re] should still [be a] hotkey, after the name of course.

We also need a point and click (and click again) method of designating a length of wall too.

No one actually memorizes every hotkey, that's why the tab menu pops up every time you enter a top level command. But point and click construction would be great. Use the keypad to select the construction material or object, then just click wherever you want to designate buildings/walls/floors. That would be a spectacular supplement to the current system. I also wish the mouse worked for umhk stuff like farm plots and bridges.

The mouse is not a magic wand that you can waive at things to make them easier. Integrating it into a majority of the menus would be a waste of development effort with the result being far less desirable than you believe. The mouse should be used for it's strengths, not hacked into every operation of the application. Mouse for eyeballing and designating stuff on the left, and keyboard for menus on the right. Imagine how awesome it would be to click on your target after a k, v, or q command. That is where efficiency lies.

The struggle time might be eliminated by a 60 second "how to use the menus" tutorial button on the main menu. Or just link it to the main help, that's all in IIRC.

If you really don't think mouse support is important, try unplugging your mouse and using your OS.  It's completely possible, but annoying and clunky, and the learning curve on keyboard controls is steeper than the learning curve of a mouse.

I operate completely without a mouse at home and at work on a regular basis. "Annoying and clunky" defines mouse navigation. If you watched me navigate windows without a mouse you would wonder to yourself how many cumulative hours of your life you've wasted navigating and clicking on things with a mouse. I'm not trying to sound like a superior asshole, I really am that fast. By the time you've clicked an icon or a button I'm 6 directories in, have started a program, opened a file, made changes, saved and quit. Would you rather be doing things as fast as you can think, or aiming a mouse at that tiny little minimize button? The mouse is a crutch, let it go.

All it takes is keyboard recognition, knowledge of the hotkeys and commands, and a little practice. I'm not that awesome, anyone can do it 

[Hyndis]

Wait...there is already mouse support in the game?   

Never noticed that. Never needed to use it either. Using a keyboard is vastly quicker than using a mouse as I can do a series of complex commands almost instantly, whereas the mouse is just one click at a time. So incredibly slow.