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[Truean]

Does "gravity assisted suicide" count?

If not, then bears.

I just... can't... help thinking of the phrase "bear assisted suicide."

Would that be like, you wanna die so you find a bear, kick it in the head and let it eat you? lol

[Kanil]

No. Bear attacks.

Not "bear assisted suicide" but bear attacks. People get mauled by grizzly bears. Dwarves get mauled by grizzly bears. Are bear mods acceptable to you?

[Kanil]

Real world juries find corporate concealed asbestos injuries incredibly offensive

But they find the conduct of the corporation offensive. They don't find the asbestos itself offensive.

[Truean]

No. Bear attacks.

Not "bear assisted suicide" but bear attacks. People get mauled by grizzly bears. Dwarves get mauled by grizzly bears. Are bear mods acceptable to you?

I know it's not bear assisted suicide. I just couldn't help thinking of it, because it was funny.

But they find the conduct of the corporation offensive. They don't find the asbestos itself offensive.

Your last two posts actually make the point for me.

I don't find bear mods offensive, because it's a bear--a force of nature without the capacity for motivation (beyond "I'm hungry"). Both the bear and asbestos are "tools" if you will that cause injury. The bear has no purpose or wielder. The asbestos does. Moreover, you know the bear will eat you, but if you work in a place, you don't know the insulation will kill you. Thus, the corporation's conduct is offensive because of it's purpose and concealment of that purpose: harm. Yes, their real purpose is to make money, but not at the cost of people's lives....

Thus, I have no problems with bear mods. I don't even really have a problem with this mod, but I just don't get why you'd make it. This whole game is about pretending little dwarves are doing fun (somethings very violent and deadly) things. As previously stated, just dropping, wheezing and dying aren't fun things. (It'd piss me off if my hard trained legendary armorer just died of that crap, you?). It's just tedious and I don't get where that gets fun....

[sunshaker]

So by your argument you would have issues with people modding Pitchblende to add the line    [METAL_ORE:URANIUM:100] just so they can build Dwarven Nuclear Reactors (what with the dwarves working without proper safety equipment, smelting, hauling and installing radioactive materials around by hand). Because it can't be fun to have your hair and teeth fall out and die by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_poisoning. Why are you not posting messages against those actives in those threads such as you are doing here?

Or is there perhaps a personal reason that asbestos is a bad subject? (Which is fine in my books, I've got issues with tobacco and cancer over the death of an uncle.)

I tried to do this mode to make fireproof clothing (because someone mentioned that if a dwarf's clothes don't catch on fire they don't die, this is of course unconfirmed, but if it makes it safer to play with magma its cool) and it was one of the materials I came up with (I stole the idea of a Giant Magma Spider from someone else and made the silk magma proof (and slightly warm for those cold glacier starts); I've done Iron and Steel thread reactions as well).

Now if there isn't anything else can we end this?

[Truean]

*sigh* It can end any time you want it to. I'm just stating an opinion. Because everyone seems to be missing it with their attention spans:

Thus, I have no problems with bear mods. I don't even really have a problem with this mod, but I just don't get why you'd make it.

My principal argument, and I'll state it again is that, I don't get why you want something that isn't fun in game. I'm not saying not to make it. I'm not saying I have a problem with it. Quite the contrary, I have said I have no problem with it. It is a game feature I don't understand the appeal of. All other arguments concerning me/my motivation are not valid, because I have expressly stated they are not valid, repeatedly, even somewhat comically.

I will say it yet again, because no one seems to be reading it:

I don't have a problem with your mod.

Did the bold print get it through this time, because everyone seems to think I do...? I have been chuckling at the people who have called "anyone who is offended by asbestos harming people" [vis a vis Me] ignorant, because they have entirely missed the point.

I'll address the rest of your post in simple, logical statements:
_________________________________________________
Pitchblend modding: YMMV.

1.) Game features that are not fun are not good;
2.) Radiation poisoning is not a fun game feature;
3.) Thus, Radiation poisoning should be avoided.

Just replace "Radiation poisoning" and "Asbestos diseases." If you want it, fine but I don't get it. There are other options for fireproof clothing.

Fireproof clothing

1.) There are many different types of fireproof clothing
2.) Asbestos is one type, but it has features that are not fun.
3.) Game features that are not fun are not good.
4.) Thus, asbestos is suboptimal to another fireproof clothing material, because asbestos has game features which are not fun (suffocatey things).
_____________________________________________________________

I am just expressing an opinion, which is exactly what you implicitly asked for by posting this question on a message board. Concerning radiation poisoning,  I do not post similar opinions, "against those actives in those threads such as [I am] doing here," because a.) I was unaware of those threads, and b.) have no duty or time to post my opinion in every single thread.
_________________________________________________________

Everyone here needs to chill out, take a step back, and realize what you are doing. It's a game. Have fun with it and don't take it so seriously when someone doesn't understand a part of it. Internet boards have a strange way of getting people to argue over stupid things in stupid ways, because they forget where they are and that it really doesn't matter.

So someone isn't grabbing pom poms and cheer leading your ideas; heaven forbid they express an opinion different from yours.

So what?

Doesn't mean the person opposite you is "ignorant;" just means they are different. If you don't want to talk to people with different views, the internet is the wrong place for you.

[snaggles]

Your definition of "fun" does not seem to be the DF definition of fun.
 

[Truean]

Your definition of "fun" does not seem to be the DF definition of fun.

Lol, yes point well taken.

Even then, you don't just play the game strictly to die do you? There's got to be something enjoyable about it right? I guess different people enjoy different things but yeah.

[Lofn]

The distinction here is that people aren't invading your threads to proclaim how badly they want you to add asbestos to your mods.

You have made your point, presented your arguments, and may now step out of the thread gracefully.

[The Eviscerator of Gods]

Awesome meltdown in this thread.

[Caesar]

Truean;

Might I notify you that you can NOT state your opinion like a fact.

1.) Game features that are not fun are not good;
2.) Radiation poisoning is not a fun game feature;

After all, the definition of 'fun' is relative. I, personally, would love radiation poisoning or any other way to kill dwarfs or other living beings.

After all it'll add another way to kill creatures.

I myself am all for stating opinions, but I also think you shouldn't quite overdo it. (Of course I must admit that I've got a knack for overdoing my own, but I'm doing my best to watch that knack.)

[Truean]

This is the spoiler response to the people who are concerned about the thread direction for some unknown reason and blaming me for it for some unknown reason.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seems the rest of you might not get the idea of an internet form. It's to discuss ideas and yes, there will be opposing viewpoints.  I haven't overdone anything. I don't see anyone chastising the people who filled up half the thread calling me ignorant....

I have been repeatedly insulted in this thread and have only clarified a viewpoint that was severely misunderstood by people who wanted to impose their own interpretation on my words while calling me ignorant with no basis to do so. I have invaded nothing. Hell, you could say I've been an accidental boon to this thread, because it would have died out long ago without everyone completely misinterpreting my simple remarks. I've actually brought it some views, simply by stating a slight, well defined disagreement to it that everyone blew waaay out of proportion.

The distinction here is that people aren't invading your threads to proclaim how badly they want you to add asbestos to your mods.

You have made your point, presented your arguments, and may now step out of the thread gracefully.

Yes, people do come to my threads and tell me what I am saying is wrong. Many of them do so far less respectfully than I have here. Some of them type things that are unprintable and unrepeatable in polite company. You imply I have hijacked a thread, nope, I haven't. Let me anticipate your counterargument: "Yes you have, look at all you wrote." Everything I wrote was directly on topic. I don't do censorship. Thanks for trying to "gracefully point out the door to me." You may leave or stay as you desire as can I. That was actually quite rude of you and I don't appreciate it. I have other points to make as you will see below if you should choose to read it.

Truean;

Might I notify you that you can NOT state your opinion like a fact.

Might I notify you that I can? You can do that as long as you recognize the possibility that you're wrong, as I did. Again, the problem isn't with me, it's with how people get stupidly mad when someone has an opposing view. Here's how a debate works. I say something and someone else says something pointing out a flaw in what I said. For some reason, you repeated the point made by Snaggles, "Your definition of "fun" does not seem to be the DF definition of fun." I had already acknowledged his point and agreed with it. Was there a point to you doing this or did you just not read what Snaggles had put a couple days before? Did you think you needed to repeat a point I had already acknowledged was a flaw in my argument?

Snaggles understands how a debate works. He pointed out a simple, undeniable (in all fairness) flaw in my logic. I then acknowledge him as correct. No personal attacks, nothing inappropriate. I'm impressed; learn from him or her.

Awesome meltdown in this thread.

Maybe, but if there's been a meltdown here, it hasn't been from me. Everyone went nuts when I simply said I didn't understand why he wanted it.

Rather than let him say, "I wanted heat resistant clothing," everyone went nuts on me. *yawn* Translation: not my fault, not accepting blame.

So I have another point I'd like to make if people will actually read it.

Reactions to Game Setbacks; this is a basic principal of game planning. Feel free to disagree (implied but I might as well say it).

Poison is a detrimental effect found in many video games. It typically erodes your HP over time. However, there is typically an antidote. The reason Poison is a fun game feature is because there is something you can do about it if you work at it. It is a CHALLENGE not an AUTOMATIC DEATH SENTENCE. It would really suck to level up and get attached to a character just to have him or her automatically die from a snakebite. As a general rule of thumb, unavoidable death only occurs in video games when it is part of a preset storyline (think FF7 temple of the ancients and Sep's sword going into a certain character's body). Again, this is because players typically get attached to their characters and killing them off arbitrarily can be disappointing. Note that this is not to say that a player's character can never die justly; I simply propose there should be at least a chance of saving the character or avoiding the situation beforehand. Otherwise, this is a  systemic railroading effect.

Applying the above to the asbestos mod would alter and perhaps entirely defeat my argument that it is "not a fun game feature." Indeed I would say poison is not a fun game feature if there is no possible antidote (common snakes become gods of death killing your high level characters). I am not certain what the "antidote" to asbestos would be. In real life, clean air supply tanks used while removing it are about the closest thing, but does anyone else get the idea that this would not be "Dwarfy" enough? Perhaps we could make something like a filter the Dwarf would have to manufacture and wear over the mouth; we could maybe use the mask item as a template?

Yes, I know, currently there is no "poison" or "disease" feature in DF, but the next version might fix that. Maybe then the OP could actually make Asbestos very deadly. All I propose is making an "antidote" or preventative measure, perhaps in the form of a mask. How about a mask that uses charcoal (and other ingredients) as a filter defense against airborne disease/poison/miasma? I would probably actually use the mod then. (Maybe Golden Salve could be a cure all if medicine is ever in game).

I'm curious as to your opinions on the matter, but do not appreciate being called "ignorant." I would have made this point long ago, but everyone decided to jump on me instead . Let's have a nice actual discussion about it this time? OK?

There, I have officially "re-railed" the thread that others tried to "derail."

[Lofn]

Truean, bro, your original posts were poorly reasoned and generally consisted of statements of opinion presented as fact.  Contrary to your OPINION, you can't just declare something to be true (such as your fascinating digest on the nature of game design), then say that it is being 'misinterpreted' by readers.  You're now wall-o-texting in order to accuse people of overreacting when they objected to the statements and reasoning you put forth.  Don't you think this whole thing is a bit over the top?  Also, don't put words into my mouth.  I didn't imply anything and if you think I did the fault really lies with you.

Anywho.  Is there any word on substances like stone or metal being contact poisons or whatnot in the next release?  I had a look and I can't seem to spot anything about it, but it would be pretty neat to emulate the effect of cold iron on the fey or silver on werewolves. 

Come to think of it, it may be possible to mod asbestos fiber in as a biome-free plant with contact/inhalation poison when the next release rolls around.

[ThreeToe]

I am getting moderator reports about this thread.  The title of the thread itself invites people to make tasteless jokes and derail it.  That doesn't mean derailing it is ok.  This section is about DF modding.  If you want to discuss the real life problems with asbestos, create a topic in the General Discussion section in the lower part of the forum.

Truean, stop trying pick a fight.

[Truean]

Well, anyhow... I'm going to try to continue "re-railing" this thread in the following manner:
(I do it all the time on other sites, so it might work here too. Good process really)

1.) Continue posting topics directly on point. That point is, putting asbestos into the game, how? I believe this includes both the mod proposed, and subsequent mods that are related to it. This will become somewhat useful in future versions (At least I think it will).

2.) Discuss game mechanics used to implement/mod in the idea. As it stands, I don't think you can program the stuff to be deadly with current game mechanics, though you could do "false death" from making the character forever stunned. Or, you could use the "magic" mods. Again this issue will probably be fixed in the new version with direct poison and disease features.

3.) Personally ignoring any derogatory comments about me and continue to not make any, because, who are we kidding, this thread will be locked otherwise. I don't think this will last much longer if we don't call a truce. We could certainly fight over who's right or wrong, but there's no point.

4.) Consider starting a new thread about possible mods of hazardous materials in game, because we might very well be able to do this in the next version. If done, I will cite and credit the original poster and his proposed mod, as would be only fair.
_____________________________________________________

List of topics I would like to cover on point: (suggest your own?)

I.) Placement of asbestos related rocks in stone layers via mod values. We seem to place things in geologically correct stone layers in this game in general, why break tradition? Anyone know where this stuff is found naturally, in what form, and how prevalent it is?

II.) Reaction issues. Ok, from what I understand, Asbestos comes from some other rock or something and then you crush it. Would anyone suggest a smelter reaction using the types of rocks from Issue I, which turns said rocks into fibers? Same goes for creation of ... I suppose cloth?

III.) Game mechanics. At some point, this thread is about modding in a hazardous material. Any ideas on how to make it hazardous?

s there any word on substances like stone or metal being contact poisons or whatnot in the next release?  I had a look and I can't seem to spot anything about it, but it would be pretty neat to emulate the effect of cold iron on the fey or silver on werewolves.

Come to think of it, it may be possible to mod asbestos fiber in as a biome-free plant with contact/inhalation poison when the next release rolls around.

Well, we're not really sure what the next release is going to have in it. What we do know comes mostly from:

http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Dwarf_Fortress_2010

and

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=30026.0

The first link does mention poisons and disease resistance. So, while i can't confirm anything, it appears that it may be possible to mod with this. As for contact poison, I'm really not sure and can't really guess how that's gonna work. Do you think it would be possible to use a mist/miasma mechanic or perhaps a proximity mechanic present in many of the "magic" mods (you know where they encrust some item of furniture with some gem or something and you get a "spell effect from it. You can raise the dead and all that fun stuff. Usable here?).

I honestly have no idea how you would mod this in as a biome-free plant. If it is boime free, then how would you get it? Smelter reaction? I do not know enough about the contact or inhaled poison system/proposed system to comment.

IV.) Complimentary Mods: These would be mods that , yes, compliment the asbestos. I think my mask idea fits nicely into this one. Said mask might involve a smelter reaction with input materials... I dunno... something like this
[no I'm not doing it formally right now, but]:

1 Charcoal
1 Iron bar
1 rough green glass gem
1 golden salve

Produces:

1 "Asbestos filter mask."

It's not exactly a polished idea, so feel free to suggest a critique/improvement of it. I think this goes with my previous position of having an "antidote or prevention item" analogous to that used in poison game features.

Finally, because it seems to make some people mad for whatever reason, I will add the following disclaimer.

Everything I say is strictly my opinion, both as stated and implied. Feel free to disagree, but please do so respectfully and with some reason as opposed to personal attacks in my message inbox. Thank you.