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Author Topic: Cooking Arc  (Read 5137 times)

Phmcw

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Cooking Arc
« on: January 31, 2010, 06:45:39 pm »

I didn't see any cooking arc and for a realistic fantasy game, this is kind of sad.

Cooking is important for both immersion and gameplay.

Why? Well medieval meal and drink are always appealing. Who didn't want to tast one of these marvelous dish you always see in medieval movies? But right now, cooking is quite silly and lacking.

What is needed?

Spice: important as luxury trade good and requirement : a noble that could have acces to a spice he like, however how expensive, should ask for it. You, should you embark on the right biome, should be able to sell these rare and hard to grow spice a fortune. May have great impact when caravan arc kick in.

Conservation. Drying, salting, or smoking should be used. Drying in hot and dry biomes of course. Raw meat, even cooked should rot quick. A bit of challenge to add if you want you dwarves having access to variend and mood enhancing dish.

Dish requirement: A lavish meal should require spice and salt. More generally variety should be needed to make good meals.

Cooking accomodations: Kitchen should be ugradable, with more tools and furnace.  Probably true for other workshop.

If you ave other idea, post them here, I will try to make a list.
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Wizardmon

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 08:11:59 pm »

I like the alarm trap. Save you needing to arrange that collapsing tile alarm thing. The rest I'm not such a fan of.

I imagine we'll see all sorts of traps coming that are related to getting poison into enemies...(hallucinogen dust spewing traps, dart traps, ect...)

I don't think you are in the right thread.

I like the idea of Spices and additional food topics, unless dwarfs don't like spicy or sweet foods.
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wilsonns

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 11:29:41 pm »

I think that we need tastes...Spicy, salty, sweety...Some dwarves will love Spicy things, when others should hate it, and when eat something spicy he will get a bad toght...
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HatfieldCW

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 12:50:31 am »

I'm almost certain that cookery is on the devnotes somewhere, about recipies and more detailed meal stats that'll play more into their dwarfy predilections.

I could do without plates and cookware, I think it would clutter the game and produce lag that isn't necessary.  Just leave them implied, like the carpenter's tools.

Preserving meats is already kind of in, in the distinction between processed and unprocessed fish, and it would probably be a simple matter to expand it.  Make it a recipe in the kitchen, "Make Pemmican" and let them mash stuff together into a non-perishable foodstuff.

As for spices, we have sugar already, so I don't see any obstacles in the way of spices, just mill some seeds or nuts and put it in a bag.  The most important thing there is classifying ingredients and giving them a role in cooking, so you don't end up with minced salt, minced salt, minced salt and minced salt being turned into a roast.

So for a roast, you'd need one ingredient with the [ROASTABLE] tag, some kind of [SPICE], a plant and a nice glaze, like dwarven syrup or rum.
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KenboCalrissian

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 12:57:48 am »

I'm in agreement.  I'm trying but can't find the screenshot of a dwarven syrup roast[100] where every single ingredient was finely minced dwarven syrup.  Question one, how to you mince syrup?  Question two, how long do you have to live after eating a meal consisting only of syrup?  Question three, why's it more valuable than 70% of the artifacts you've created in your fort?
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Lunafox

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 02:23:38 am »

I'm trying but can't find the screenshot of a dwarven syrup roast[100] where every single ingredient was finely minced dwarven syrup.  Question one, how to you mince syrup?

I've had this happen before when I was useuing alot of sweetpods and foodstuff related goods from them. Needless to say a Roasting a sugery suryp thats been minced together would give a VERY nice (and expenice) toffy. Done with Suger and some pritty nifty candy would come out. Add a few different bits and bobs to the recipy but the bulk of it still being the syrup would give you a variaty of different flavours

Dwarven Rum Toffy
Dragon Tallow Candy

Everyone would came from far and wide to enjoy my sweeties... if only I could get all my Dwarven Sryup minced by waterfall I could call myself Willy Wonka  :P
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HatfieldCW

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 03:14:04 am »

Wow, that makes me feel a lot better about trading a few dwarven syrup roasts for everything the humans own.  Elves make toys, dwarves make candy.
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Dwarfu

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 03:34:40 am »

I didn't see any cooking arc and for a realistic fantasy game, this is kind of sad.

I don't think it needs an entire arc, but...

# Req129, IMPROVE COOKING, (Future): More food. Food should require a substrate, rather than just being seeds etc. Seeds, syrups, drinks and other such objects can contribute to the likes/dislike checks as they do now, but they shouldn't add to the number created. A good roll could lead to the recipe being given a name and saved to the entity definition, where it can then be encountered in other cities in subsequent games.

# Bloat85, MORE FOOD PREFS, (Future): Prepared food preferences, like "biscuits" or "minced foods" without respect to what is actually in it. Very picky dwarves, especially nobles, could like things like "roasted venison biscuits" or something, but then you'd have to be able to have that much control over the kitchen. Requires Req129.

# Bloat109, DRINK IMPROVEMENTS, (Future): More names for drinks, they could have special names, commemorate things, be improved in the kitchen, associated drinking rituals, etc.

# Bloat212, BOTTLING, (Future): Glass bottles for trading away master booze, bottling it and aging it, fun labeling of the bottles complete with names and images and years, comments on years, collector quests.

There, I made you a mini-arc.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 03:53:16 am by Dwarfu »
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varkarrus

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 11:44:00 am »

I just think Toady should modify the way meal raws work


[FOOD:BREAD]
[INGREDIENT:FLOUR:ANY:2:NAMED] Named means it says what it's made of. Like this would make Cave Wheat Flour Bread.
[NAME:bread:bread]
[TYPE:EASY]

[FOOD:COLDCUT]
[INGREDIENT:MEAT:EDIBLE:1:NAMED]
[NAME:coldcut:coldcuts]
[TYPE:EASY]

[FOOD:SAMMICH]
[INGREDIENT:COLDCUT:ANY:1:NAMED]
[INGREDIENT:BREAD:ANY:0.2:UNNAMED] (2 slices of a loaf)
{NAME:sandwich:sanwhiches]
[TYPE:SMALL_MEAL]

[FOOD:STEW]
[INGREDIENT:BROTH:ANY:1:UNNAMED]
[INGREDIENT:MEAT:EDIBLE:3:NAMED]
[INGREDIENT:PLANT:STARCH:3:NAMED] (like potatoes, or rice)
[INGREDIENT:PLANT:SPICES:1:UNNAMED]
[TYPE:LARGE_MEAL]

Anyone for Elephant Potato Stew?

[FOOD:PIZZA]
[NAME:pizza:pizzas]
[INGREDIENT:FLOUR:ANY:4:UNNAMED]
[INGREDIENT:CHEESE:ANY:1:UNNAMED]
[INGREDIENT:PLANT:TOMATO:1:UNNAMED]
[OPTIONAL_INGREDIENT:SAUSAGE:ANY:1:NAMED]
[OPTIONAL_INGREDIENT:FISH:EDIBLE:0.3:NAMED]
[OPTIONAL_INGREDIENT:PLANT:HERB:0.1:NAMED]
[OPTIONAL_INGREDIENT:MEAT:ANY:1:NAMED]
[OPTIONAL_INGREDIENT:PLANT:ANY:1:NAMED]
[OPTIONAL_INGREDIENT:OIL:EDIBLE:0.1:NAMED]


Raws like this would be the simplest approach to this.
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And you can't eat them, either, sadly. Even though it'd make sieges so much more fun; dwarves lining the walls, drooling and carrying sharp knives and forks, ready for the upcoming meals.

LordZorintrhox

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2010, 11:31:45 am »

Hmmm, cookery...

Well, as for flavors, there are only six the game really need worry about:

salty
sweet
bitter
sour
spicy (as in hot peppers)
umami (savoriness, like meat or mushrooms)

Balancing those flavors in a dish is what makes it tasty, and perfectly balancing them makes a dish that special kind of "I wish I didn't have to stop eating it is so good."  If Toady can get his hands on some molecular gastronomics papers he should be able to derive or find a suitable recipe formula.  I know at least one exists, and all you have to do is plug in ANY food that fits the variables' properties, make the dish, and voila! something tasty.

That is, to go with the DF procedural thing.  Going further, food raws would then have flavor tags and preparation tags.

Flavor tags give scores in the flavor categories to a food item.

Preparation tags give the ways in which the food can be cooked.  Each civ then has a list of preparation methods they favor, maybe some they completely ignore, and food categories they don't consider edible (like say, pancreas).  So, like:

Baking
Roasting
Frying (in a pan)
Frying (in deep fat)
Boiling
Stewing
Molding (gelatins)

To go with those, the extracts arc would need to be enacted to include:

Flour/Meals (we've got that, but there should be more)
Gelatin (from bones)
Broth (MAYBE, but seems tedious)
Rendered Fat (refined lard, butter)
Oil (olive being the big one there)
Some spices (things that need drying, like caraway or shrimp powder)

A speculative recipe forming routine:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If seasonings are one flavor category to aid in balancing the recipe formula, then spices would need to be different and just be an item of preference.  For example:

Seasonings (augment one flavor):
Salts
Sugars
Acids (Vinegar, particularly)
(no clue for bitterness)
Hot Peppers
Broth (for umami; alternatively, mushrooms)

Spices (an ingredient of preference and not included in the recipe formula):
Rosemary
Basil
Sage
Bay Leaf
Clove
Fenugreek

To support all that and breads, which are different because of the scale they need, you'd need new workshops:

Kitchen - Makes finished meals like before
Herbalist Shop - Herbalists could prepare spice plants, or this could just be in the Kitchen as an automatic job
Bakery - Breads and the like
Smokehouse - Smoking meat
*Vinegar Fermenter - Duh
*Oil Press - also duh
*Creamery - cheeses and butter

Asterisks mean that those workshops could just be stuck into the farmer's workshop.  The smokehouse has for certain been suggested before.  Bakery should be separate because this is at the latest 1400s tech: the staple food is a daily task and the dwarves should eat some at every meal.  That is too much traffic for the kitchen if it is also making normal meals.  Furthermore, randomly giving civs access to leavening would add some nice variability.
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Owlbread

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 11:34:41 am »

Don't forget that meat could be preserved by placing it on a cold stone slab.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 02:59:32 pm »

# Req129, IMPROVE COOKING, (Future): More food. Food should require a substrate, rather than just being seeds etc. Seeds, syrups, drinks and other such objects can contribute to the likes/dislike checks as they do now, but they shouldn't add to the number created. A good roll could lead to the recipe being given a name and saved to the entity definition, where it can then be encountered in other cities in subsequent games.

# Bloat85, MORE FOOD PREFS, (Future): Prepared food preferences, like "biscuits" or "minced foods" without respect to what is actually in it. Very picky dwarves, especially nobles, could like things like "roasted venison biscuits" or something, but then you'd have to be able to have that much control over the kitchen. Requires Req129.

# Bloat109, DRINK IMPROVEMENTS, (Future): More names for drinks, they could have special names, commemorate things, be improved in the kitchen, associated drinking rituals, etc.

# Bloat212, BOTTLING, (Future): Glass bottles for trading away master booze, bottling it and aging it, fun labeling of the bottles complete with names and images and years, comments on years, collector quests.

Also, there have been a lot of cooking threads, with which this thread is very redundant:

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=46121.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=26486.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=48068.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=26595.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3892.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=34091.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=6021.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=29992.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=25425.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28964.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=32223.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=46186.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3600.0
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Phmcw

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 09:01:39 pm »

Ok, ok I lock it then... dammit is there one thing toady didn't think about?
Honestly, almost all suggestions are in the project, when you can't find it, i is generally because you didn't search well enough . In this case I searched the arc, not the bloat and Req T_T

Edit: Cannot lock apparently. Well, he other thread were interesting, there is no reason to keep this one, so if somebody want to lock it np. By the way toady, you're more than impressive.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 09:11:10 pm by Phmcw »
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Stove

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2010, 09:24:52 pm »

And a couple threads regarding booze:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42660.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=31231.0

(As a real-life brewerdwarf, I consider this very important!)
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Darkond2100

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Re: Cooking Arc
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 11:42:38 pm »

spices seem like the most reasonably life-like mandate for a Noble to make. Along with sugars and goods that will last a long time.
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