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Author Topic: CCS now under development  (Read 31952 times)

Duuvian

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2010, 02:37:46 am »

I think that a better idea would be for mentally retarded people to be classified as animals in C+ instead of having mutants be engineered somehow, unless this is set a few decades in the future.

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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2010, 03:25:20 am »

turning it into "What if crazy people that have views that nobody in the real
world actually agrees with started fighting for a revolution in modern America?"

I think you're being a bit optimistic about what "nobody would believe."

True, maybe you can find a handful of oddballs that think "Subhuman mutants have been bio-engineered as a race of fallow test subjects" is a good idea, but it has so little connection to reality or conservatism in general that I would even veto putting it on the "you lose" screen in LCS, where all the worst nightmare exaggerations about conservatism by the leftest left wing exist. The name "Conservative Crime Squad" implies that your characters will have views based on conservatism, and this betrays that.

Code: [Select]
Gender Equality
 L++ It is illegal to acknowledge any difference between differently-gendered people.
 L+ Legal protections exist to ensure gender equality in the workplace.
 M No laws exist enforcing or discriminating for or against gender.
 C+ Women are legally restricted from certain positions in the military and politics.
 C++ It is illegal for women to leave the home without the escort of a male family member.

You or I personally might not want to live in the C++ world like that...but there are people who think that way.

Here you're taking viewpoints attributed to radical islam and attributing them to conservatives. You can do that if the conservatives are the bad guys in your game (this would fit on the LCS you lose screen), but turning Conservative Crime Squad into Islamic Jihad Squad loses sight of the parody entirely. If you want to make Islamic Jihad Squad, don't let me stop you, but if you're not knowledgable about the cultural conflicts you're dealing with, I'd urge you to be careful, or it will be, as you say, dude not funny. But as it is, what you're proposing isn't about left-right politics anymore. If you want to make that game, don't call it Conservative Crime Squad, because it won't be. Do you see what I'm saying here? Are you going to be parodying modern politics, or just making things up?

Code: [Select]
The Unborn Child
 L++ DIY Abortion kits are available from free dispensers at every elementary school.
 L+ Abortion services are provided freely to anyone at state sponsored clinics
 M Abortion is legal
 C+ Abortion is legal during early stages of pregnancy
 C++ Accidental miscarriage is a crime

Likewise, this is not a commentary on conservatism. It's perfectly appropriate for how the LCS might see them, and like the one on women, it could fit on the game over screen of LCS. But then it's really a commentary on the liberal character of the game itself. Saying that the CCS has this as a self-avowed view when you're playing as them, that isn't effective satire. It just makes it sound like the author of the game hates conservatives.

Quote
your radicals need to believe they're in the right, or they
can't justify their actions even to themselves.

They do. Just like islamic jihadists believe that they're serving god when they blow themselves up. Just like the people who gatecrash the funerals of gay men with signs saying that God hates fags believe in what they're doing.

Many, many people believe that homosexuality is condemned by God, or are willing to lay down their life for God or in violent resistance to oppression. Whether you find them abhorrent and alien or not, those aren't odd by human standards. The "shock" in both are not from what the people believe -- it's how far they're willing to go for those beliefs, through violating social norms and inflicting indiscriminate emotional and physical harm on people. The LCS is no better on this axis. Having your people be willing to do crazy stuff and still think of themselves as right isn't the issue here. That aspect of human nature is part of the point of the game.

Personally, just like you find it funny that the LCS uses guns to kill people to protest gun ownership...I think it's hilarious that the CCS is going to work so very hard to install laws that will turn around and bite them.

You hardly need to fabricate a non-existent version of conservatism in order to do that. Real conservatives would heartily endorse measures that would make life for the CCS very difficult. I've long agreed that balancing the difficulty in a Conservative Crime Squad game would be much easier than it is in Liberal Crime Squad.

Liberal Crime Squad is all about how far your people are willing to go for liberal beliefs, and it's based on a real example where people actually were willing to go that far. The irony in the game is true. That's very different from what you're proposing -- you're saying you want to make a game about "Conservatives" as you call them, who are willing to fight and die to achieve things that aren't actually conservative. And you're telling me this is supposed to be hilarious.

Conservative Crime Squad really should be made by someone who understands conservatism and can do justice to a satire of the right. Brutally straw manning the player's own squad takes a good idea and misses the point with it. Of course I can't stop you if you want to do it; LCS does not actually belong to me, it's an open source game created by Tarn Adams. I've just been vision keeper for it for awhile. But if you want to make this game, I would urge you to consider developing it as a separate IP. Based on and inspired by LCS, sure, but not Conservative Crime Squad per se, unless you're prepared to treat the conservative ideology with at least some sensitivity and respect.

I understand that you find this concept for the game appealing and I don't want to begrudge that or prevent you from making that game. But I feel strongly that this is not appropriate for Conservative Crime Squad, and it is contrary to the tradition established by Liberal Crime Squad of having the game act a set of glasses over the player's eyes that color the entire world according the views of the radicals you control.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from here. The rebellious left-wing bias built into LCS is one of the things the game does well, and you seem to be throwing it away in favor of a much more crude handling of the political situation that will make the game appear to have been written by a moderate cynic instead of a conservative radical.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 03:41:35 am by Jonathan S. Fox »
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Necaladun

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2010, 04:42:41 am »


Conservative Crime Squad really should be made by someone who understands conservatism and can do justice to a satire of the right. Brutally straw manning the player's own squad takes a good idea and misses the point with it.

I agree wholeheartwisdomly.

LCS is based on the real-world SLA. (snip) Yes, they're bad guys. But in their eyes, they thought they were the heroes of the story.

It's hard to find those who don't think they are. Especially in revolutions.

It's really a question of how over the top. For instance, PETA are a very small minority who believe in complete animal liberation. The idea of it I find quite funny. The KKK is a very small minority. The SLA was so small minority doesn't even do the idea justice. "A handful of wackos" is better.

The conservative movement, like the liberal, is very, very hard to define. To find a member of either who has the same idea for their own L+ or C+ will be different for almost everyone. I'm sure Bush, Palin, McCain, and William Calley, would all make very different versions of CCS.

The LCS is funny for fighting for a peaceful hippytopia. I think the CCS fighting, illeagaly, for the man, could have it's own irony.
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LordBucket

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2010, 07:31:13 am »

little connection to reality or conservatism in general

Let me venture a guess here: the win condition of LCS is your own personal ideal of how you would like society to really genuinely be?

Quote
radical islam and attributing them to conservatives

Radical islam is "conservative" in its view of women. Forget islam for a moment, and think about stereotypical conservative views of women:

Traditionally women cannot be priests? Check.
No women in the military? Check.
Women making wedding vows to obey their husband? Check.
The proper role of women is to stay at home and take care of the family? Check.

Keep in mind that at C+ levels the conditions I've described are reality now or have been recently. Even today the US military does not allow women to serve in some capacities. Women were only even given the right to vote in the past century. Prior to 1973 it was illegal in most states for women to have abortions even if they were raped.

This view of women as submissive creatures, as property, is very much in-theme with traditional conservatism. Confining them to the home is simply an extreme scenario. Extreme scenarios are what we're looking for. You might not personally relate...but I have a tough time thinking of something as "extreme" when I remember it actually having been that way in my lifetime.

Quote
Conservative Crime Squad really should be made by someone
who understands conservatism and can do justice to a satire of the right.

Once again, I suggest that your personal views are sufficiently liberal that you're whitewashing what you're willing to accept as real versus fantasy. Going through my list, pretty much everything up to C+ levels is either real today, or has been real within my lifetime.

Quote
C+   Abortion is legal during early stages of pregnancy

Check. That's current law right now in my state. Third semester abortion is illegal.

Quote
C+   Prostitution is illegal

Check. Current law in most states.

Quote
C+   Women are legally restricted from certain positions in the military and politics.

Check. First woman ever to be permitted a combat command? 1989. Even today, women are barred from infantry positions, submarines, Navy SEALS, etc.

Quote
C+   Most crimes are punishable by fines and/or jailtime. The death penalty may be issued in extreme cases

Check. Current law in most states.

Quote
C+   Free speech is permitted in designated 'free speech' zones

Sound extreme? Sorry. Current reality. I didn't make this up.

Quote
handling of the political situation that will make the game appear
to have been written by a moderate cynic instead of a conservative radical.

Everything listed in this post is either real today or has been real within my lifetime. As such...I think it's fair to say that it could not be considered "radical." So, to be radical, all of these issues need to be anted up beyond what is listed.

Please set aside your own personal discomfort. If you don't want to live in the C++ world I've described, I understand that. I wouldn't either. But it is a plausible portrayal of radical conservativism.

Asmodeous

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2010, 08:50:49 am »

The "C++" view of abortion would be "An Unborn child is given full rights as a citizen."

If one can't really recognize that, then I have to agree with Jon, really.

Edit: Also, the "C++" view on womens' rights would be "Women may no longer be in the labor force for safety/efficiency concerns". With a positive spin on it, really. You can do some easy research back into the 30's to the 70's and see the arguments used against it, and find very easily how to put it in a way that shows you're doing it "for the women" and not "because you're a mysoginistic douche". (Note: I'm not calling you a mysoginistic douche, I'm stating the CCS is a bunch of them. ;) )
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 08:55:19 am by Asmodeous »
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Neonivek

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2010, 09:03:11 am »

Yep as always L++ and C++ are supposed to be clearly insane
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Cheddarius

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2010, 09:53:37 am »

Wait, I think I've misunderstood this game's purpose. When we play LCS, are the liberal ones supposed to seem better than the crazy conservative ones? Or are we supposed to mock the very people we play as?
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Asmodeous

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2010, 09:55:32 am »

Wait, I think I've misunderstood this game's purpose. When we play LCS, are the liberal ones supposed to seem better than the crazy conservative ones? Or are we supposed to mock the very people we play as?

Why can't it be both?
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Cheddarius

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2010, 10:00:50 am »

Er, are the liberal ones supposed to seem reasonable or crazy, is what I mean.
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Asmodeous

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2010, 10:51:29 am »

Er, are the liberal ones supposed to seem reasonable or crazy, is what I mean.

I would think they're supposed to seem crazy, but not so crazy that you can't empathize with their justifications.
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Ruttiger

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2010, 12:28:59 pm »

Am I the only person who thinks this entire concept is flawed?  You could make a clone of LCS for the CCS instead, but it wouldn't really contribute anything new or interesting, it would be a rehash of the same thing with the same gags but instead tied to the opposite extreme if you are going to put the hours into it to make this happen, instead just add to LCS and improve it instead.  Or write something new and original.
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Oksbad

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Re: What if someone volunteered to make CCS?
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2010, 12:45:06 pm »


 L++   Research testing is forbidden. Cosmetics and pharmecueticals are dispensed directly to the public.


I don't agree, not because it is extreme, but because it conflicts with the L+ idea of company regulation to dispense pharmecuetecal directly to the public.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2010, 12:47:34 pm »

Er, are the liberal ones supposed to seem reasonable or crazy, is what I mean.

I would think they're supposed to seem crazy, but not so crazy that you can't empathize with their justifications.

This is essentially it -- they are crazy people in pursuit of a believable agenda. You aren't supposed to think they're reasonable; they're shooting people for gun control, after all. But there are many people in modern society who actually agree with some or all of their goals.

little connection to reality or conservatism in general

Let me venture a guess here: the win condition of LCS is your own personal ideal of how you would like society to really genuinely be?

No, in fact I didn't even write most of the issues. More than half were written by Tarn Adams and I've altered very few of them. My personal vision of ideal society is significantly more conservative than the Liberal Crime Squad's.

Quote
radical islam and attributing them to conservatives

Radical islam is "conservative" in its view of women.

Within Islamic culture, it is "conservative" in the sense that they adhere to very traditionalist and anti-liberal views on gender equality that are based directly on religious views about protecting women and modesty. Within western culture, which is what LCS is based on, there is no precedent, going back through the renaissance, middle ages, classical era, or before when women weren't allowed to leave their homes without their husband. It has no relevance to reality unless you are ascribing Islamic views to the CCS.

Forget islam for a moment, and think about stereotypical conservative views of women:

Traditionally women cannot be priests? Check.
No women in the military? Check.
Women making wedding vows to obey their husband? Check.
The proper role of women is to stay at home and take care of the family? Check.

Women cannot leave the house without their husband? Never in the history of western society has this ever been check. Why forget Islam if you're holding up uniquely Islamic ideals for gender roles as representing conservatism? Why choose something that even radical conservatives would oppose to represent them?

Several of these would also be objectionable since, even if they fit your stereotype of what conservatives think, they haven't represented conservative views in a hundred years. Sure, anti-suffrage has precedence, but is your Conservative Crime Squad from the 1920s, or the 2010s? This is dating back to when the south was a solid Democrat voting bloc.

This view of women as submissive creatures, as property, is very much in-theme with traditional conservatism. Confining them to the home is simply an extreme scenario. Extreme scenarios are what we're looking for. You might not personally relate...but I have a tough time thinking of something as "extreme" when I remember it actually having been that way in my lifetime.

You've cited suicide bombers and funeral crashing as extreme, even when they represent very common views, and simply express those views in an extreme manner. I doubt you'd have any problem seeing even Ron Paul Libertarians as extreme once they form a crime squad and start murdering fast food workers for their beliefs.

Keep in mind that at C+ levels the conditions I've described are reality now or have been recently. Even today the US military does not allow women to serve in some capacities. Women were only even given the right to vote in the past century. Prior to 1973 it was illegal in most states for women to have abortions even if they were raped.

On a five point scale, as is used in LCS, the range is:

L+
L
m
C
C+

Plus one additional level of absurdity for the lose conditions, which some people colloquially call "C++". Winning is the same as L+.

You're adding an additional + to the scale on the L and C parts, so that L+ means "liberal" and L++ means "liberal elite". So when you say C+ views are realistic, you are saying that the moderately conservative views -- which the CCS finds insufficient -- are realistic. That's not what I'm talking about.

Quote
Conservative Crime Squad really should be made by someone
who understands conservatism and can do justice to a satire of the right.

Once again, I suggest that your personal views are sufficiently liberal that you're whitewashing what you're willing to accept as real versus fantasy. Going through my list, pretty much everything up to C+ levels is either real today, or has been real within my lifetime.

This is called a staw man argument, whereby you ignore that I'm talking about the "C++" entries on your lists, and claim I'm "whitewashing" because I won't accept that your "C+" views. Which is a complete misrepresentation. Indeed, many of these moderate conservative views aren't extreme enough to represent the CCS's views, because they represent compromises; so I agree that an additional level is necessary. Many US States would readily prohibit abortion entirely except in special cases, if it wasn't unconstitutional, and the push to overturn Roe vs. Wade is a quite mainstream movement intended to permit this. A proper CCS view would therefore be an extension of, as Asmodeous says, the principle of life beginning at conception. The fetus has citizenship. It's extreme, it's amusing, and it's actually satire of the right. You could easily find people who would say "Okay, that's a little extreme, but they have the basic idea right." On the other hand, nobody is calling for putting women in jail because their husband beat them and they had a miscarriage.

Quote
handling of the political situation that will make the game appear
to have been written by a moderate cynic instead of a conservative radical.

Everything listed in this post is either real today or has been real within my lifetime. As such...I think it's fair to say that it could not be considered "radical." So, to be radical, all of these issues need to be anted up beyond what is listed.

Please set aside your own personal discomfort. If you don't want to live in the C++ world I've described, I understand that. I wouldn't either. But it is a plausible portrayal of radical conservativism.

So this is pretty amazing. I criticize your "C++" lines, and you defend with "C+" lines, then swap back to claiming "C++" is plausible, indeed necessary in order to make the CCS come across as radical. Is your game going to be about handing out flowers, such that you need to fabricate the political alignment of your protagonists in order for them to come across as insane, or is it going to be about shooting things and kidnapping people? Because if it's the latter, you don't need to do anything to dress up conservatism to make it look radical. Everything is radical when sufficiently disproportionate force is applied behind it, and that's part of the irony.

It is more insulting than anything when you try to suggest to me that everything I've said comes from a "personal discomfort" and desire to not live in a society built by the CCS. What I'm doing is pressuring you to uphold the integrity of the game as a satire by actually representing a liberal-conservative dynamic through conservative eyes. If that's not the game you want to make, then go ahead and make your game, but don't call it Conservative Crime Squad.

I know the way the game rips on Liberalism is fairly meta and subtle, but it's not completely inscrutable here. You've obviously picked up on it and found the LCS to represent sufficiently crazy people for your taste, and that's with very few exaggerations on the left wing ideals.

Am I the only person who thinks this entire concept is flawed?  You could make a clone of LCS for the CCS instead, but it wouldn't really contribute anything new or interesting, it would be a rehash of the same thing with the same gags but instead tied to the opposite extreme if you are going to put the hours into it to make this happen, instead just add to LCS and improve it instead.  Or write something new and original.

This is more a matter of how a person wants to spend their time. I think a CCS game would be fun, but I agree that it's not worth the time it would take me to develop; I'd just work on improving LCS or develop something entirely different. But that's why I'm not personally working on it.
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Ruttiger

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2010, 02:40:30 pm »

Fox, out of curiosity, ARE you working on anything else?
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LordBucket

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2010, 04:33:30 pm »

The more I read this thread, the more I find myself getting angry. We're falling in the direction of yet another 18+ page thread of bickering over whether magenta is more or less suitable than mauve. Allow me to quote myself from the first post of this thread:

Quote
not likely to be any consensus on how to make it, what issues, gameplay, etc. Some people want it to be comical, others want it to be dark, nobody agrees on issues, etc. Realizing that it's unlikely for there to be a CCS that everyone will be happy with, would you rather than somebody sat down and made a game

To that there was complete agreement that it would be nice to have a game. And yet now we're back to bickering. Lest people fall into believing that theirs is the only position being stated in this thread, let's remind everyone that that there are people expressing both pleasure and displesaure at the world I have proposed. Ultimately the problem here is that the entire basic premise of "liberalism vs conservatism" is fundamentally flawed because these words are gross simplifications used to describe a broad variety of belief systems that are not one dimensional in their expression.

I recognize that no single world is going to make everyone happy, and my interest in trying is waning with each passing moment.

Therefore, I propose a really simple solution to all this. CCS can feature a game mode toggle:


Politically correct, in which the CCS saves the world from liberalism, by changing it to a more or less current real life states of affairs which people will find comfortable and easily relate to.

Orwellian Nightmare: In which the CCS saves the world from liberalism by condemning it to an equally crazy opposite extreme.

Would that make everyone happy?




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