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[Jimlad]

It's already been mentioned by one member in another thread, but I'm surprised that there hasn't been much call for it.

I think that the game really lends itself to mouse support, moreso than any other roguelike I can think of. It'd make gameplay much, much faster, rather than having to tap keys continuously to scroll around.

It may take a bit of care, but would it be difficult to add some simple mouse support on top of the current cursor interface? Of course, it would have to be in conjunction with keyboard commands, but tasks such as designating mining areas and selecting dwarves would be so much simpler.

Even better, you could add some sort of limited context sensitivity... for example, clicking on a workshop would bring up the crafting queue, and clicking on a dwarf could bring up their status.

Any thoughts?

[ September 02, 2006: Message edited by: Jimlad ]

[dav]

My sense is that this is actually pretty darn hard.  It's not worth it for me, I don't think, but I tend to think that about features I haven't tried.  

If implemented, I mostly want a mouse-over that will tell me vital facts without pausing the game.  Maybe a combination of k and v?  I wouldn't use it for much else, I don't think.

[Toady One]

The engine or whatever it's called already has mouse support (I drew the intro movie with the mouse with an unreleased in-game editor).  I just haven't done anything with it.  I guess there are a few threads involving mouse support.  People can pick one and debate if they like.

edit: another one

[ September 02, 2006: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[imsabbel]

Well, just as an example, mouse support would making the following things a ton faster, easier and RSI-reduced:

-selecting individual items/dwards
-creating mining layouts
-tracing ore vains

Not to mention that with two or even three bottoms, a lot of intuitiveness that is currently lacking would be possible.
Click for selection, doubleclick for a default action, right-click to show contents,ect.

As is, i never know if i should "k" "v" or "t" something if i want to get the details.

As a matter of fact, those 3 keys are ABSOLUTELY redundant. There should be only ONE details page, and if its a bin, well than it should show the contains, it its a person, it should show the person menu.

[ September 02, 2006: Message edited by: imsabbel ]

[Rollory]

There is a huge amount of redundancy, for sure.  k/v/t/q all are ways of looking at something to find information about it.  d/p both are "designate", and both have the x option to un-designate something.  Half the screens use * and / to scroll up and down, the other half use pageup/pagedown (I didn't even realize pgup/dn support was implemented for a long time).  

All this sort of thing should at some point get condensed down to a simpler and cleaner interface.

Also, I would like the option - when choosing to do something, like chain an animal up, or butcher, it, or build something using materials - to either do it the current way, or to specifically select, using the cursor (whether mouse or the current X moved by arrows, doesn't matter), the precise object I want to be used in the action.  Though that's more of a wishlist thing.  Cleaning up the interface is way more important.

[Kjoery]

I'm happy with the keyboard setup right now; I can get things done pretty quickly. In windowed mode selecting things with a mouse would be pretty awkward anyways.

One thing that's helped me alot, I guess, is the fact that I've absorbed every single keyobard command in the game simply by playing it, so I can get through any menu nearly instantly.

[ September 02, 2006: Message edited by: Kjoery ]

[imsabbel]

But please, that "its shitty, but i know it by heart now, so its ok" isnt really an argument.
Streamlining redundant cruft should always be done if possible.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by imsabbel:
<STRONG>Well, just as an example, mouse support would making the following things a ton faster, easier and RSI-reduced:

-selecting individual items/dwards
-creating mining layouts
-tracing ore vains

Not to mention that with two or even three bottoms, a lot of intuitiveness that is currently lacking would be possible.
Click for selection, doubleclick for a default action, right-click to show contents,ect.

As is, i never know if i should "k" "v" or "t" something if i want to get the details.

As a matter of fact, those 3 keys are ABSOLUTELY redundant. There should be only ONE details page, and if its a bin, well than it should show the contains, it its a person, it should show the person menu.

[ September 02, 2006: Message edited by: imsabbel ]</STRONG>

Actually I have 6 buttons on my mouse.
 
I think there should be at least 4 button support for mouses, so we could config 4 ingame keys to the mouse. That would make things hella easier.

[Phssthpok]

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>

Actually I have 6 buttons on my mouse.
 
I think there should be at least 4 button support for mouses, so we could config 4 ingame keys to the mouse. That would make things hella easier.</STRONG>

The more mouse buttons you map to commands, the slower you will be able to use them. You don't perceive mental time hits the same way you perceive homing time hits.

[Jimlad]

I've gotta say, I agree with imsabbel. Kjoery's argument has no real merit; by that logic, if a person could get used to a given interface, no matter how clunky, then it would never improve. We could get used to driving cars with ten levers and five joysticks, but what would be the point when you could use a steering wheel?

It just strikes me that if mouse support is actually already in there, why not add it? It might not be the most exciting thing to code, but the improvement/time-spent-coding ratio would be way higher than spending time fixing bugs. Not to mention the fact that you're making things far more accessible for new players, since the whole "having to learn random buttons" thing is what puts a lot of people off roguelikes in the first place. In fact, earlier today I had a conversation with a friend who said he just didn't play roguelikes (including DF when I tried to show him) because of the chore of learning what the fifty controls do.

[RPB]

Bugs are really too important to ignore period. If mouse support is feasible, though, I definitely think it should be a priority over just about any other new addition. It would HUGELY speed up laying out new rooms if you could click and drag instead of using that slow-ass keyboard cursor.

[Toady One]

No hardcore anti-mouse views?  Or would that basically be "you should continue to allow keyboard-only support and don't spend time doing the mouse now if it's a big time sink, but we don't really mind if other people use it"?

As far as k-v-q-t goes, it kind of sprung up over time, but streamlining has some issues.  There can be many things in one square, but only one building per square, and mostly one unit per square.  I'm not defending the current interface, but some properties that it has that beat a single button are that 'v' gets you to units fast, 'q' gets you to building jobs fast, and 't' gets you to building items fast.  'k' is a half-implemented general key which shows you everything in the square, but it would require going through that list to get anything done.  Of course there are better ways to do it, but there are a lot of issues to consider as well -- if you want to get to a single details page from the main view with the keyboard, you are going to have to either have several key presses to choose from initially (as it is now), or you'll have a series of keys to press (as it would be with a single view like [k]).  The mouse would mitigate some of this, but I suspect there are more views on this than what I've currently heard.

Also, if the mouse goes in, it would come in in awkward pieces screen by screen and function by function, due to the older (and most) of the interface being written in a haphazard fashion.  These would have to be unified and cleaned up as the mouse is incorporated.  I was somewhat resistant to this because the game is still changing, but it seems like some of it has stabilized enough to at least think about how it might work now.

[ September 03, 2006: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>No hardcore anti-mouse views?  Or would that basically be "you should continue to allow keyboard-only support and don't spend time doing the mouse now if it's a big time sink, but we don't really mind if other people use it"?

[ September 03, 2006: Message edited by: Toady One ]</STRONG>

So long as the interface is cleaned up overall I don't mind at all.   I'll still use the keyboard because I have my mouse speed cranked up real high, and often play in windowed mode.  I do wonder how pausing while looking at things would work with a mouse.

[Aphix]

I think the interface would have to be cleaned up and streamlined much more before making mouse functions be well, functional.

The system isn't too bad with the keyboard. Sure some of the keys seem redundant, but if you have them all combined into one key, it'd be annoying to try to get to a building and have to hit every dwarf in between before jumping to the building. So I like the seperate keys.

[Sophismata]

With Toady's recent fix to key repeat functionality, I don't see much need for a mouse at this stage, and it's likely to induce more headaches than it solves.

If you set the key repeats really low, dragging and scrolling is no problem unless you're looking to design unusual areas.