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Author Topic: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.  (Read 2500 times)

Moogie

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Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« on: February 23, 2010, 02:18:58 am »

I'd like to suggest an addendum to Bloat165, which reads:
Quote
"WALL HANGINGS AND RUGS, (Future): Rugs, tapestries, paintings, etc. This leads to things like paint and pigments. The player's skin could hang in the goblin fortress in the same way. It could even be improved like dwarf items. Requires Core43."

To this I would very much like to see the implementation of other forms of wall decor; one thing I have always wanted to do is line my hallways with torches (or other light-giving fixtures) so that my dwarves can actually see their surroundings. I've always found it a bit odd that underground forts and caves could be navigated so easily, despite having no visible lightsources. I mean, what are we; cats, or dwarves? :)

This could remain limited to a bloat implementation... however, I see great potential for even more added depth and realism if you decide to make light work logically in this way. As an adventurer, you'd be able to navigate around towns and other settlements thanks to their light fixtures, but in caves, you'd have to bring along your own torches. In Dwarf Mode, artificial lights could simply be aesthetic and unecessary; or, perhaps the player would need to really account for visibility when designing, to ensure his dwarves remain alert and attentive to their duties while working (and soldiering) underground.

Besides being more realistic, I think it would generally give indoor environments an additional layer of atmosphere and overall beauty.

Thoughts?
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teloft

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 05:39:08 am »

As the tunnle fills with gases, McDigger gose down into the darkness.  As he makes fire to ligth his pathway, the gas ignites and his clothing cathces on fire. The dwarf begin sturdy and able to go without air for some time is able to find a sand pile to put out the fire but on the way he suddenly needs a drink. ...

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Rawl

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 06:16:03 am »

I would like to be able to add levers to walls. Heck i would love if we could somehow work torches/sconces, levers into engravings. "This is an engraving of a Dwarf holding up a Hammer, The hammer also functions as a lever."

As far as light sources go. I don't think dwarves should NEED light sources per say... Lets say they could see basic shapes in no light situations. Theres a cow in the hall, i see a chair beside it, there is a dwarf in the chair, looks like Lolor... When a dwarf is making things in no light area he would be limited in the quality of engraving/improving of items. It would be harder to carve a mastercraft elk in a wooden cup with no light but with a light source it becomes much easier for the dwarf.

Just my two cents on the light thing, but yeah, I like your idea for the bloat.
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Karnewarrior

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 07:26:34 am »

Dwarves can see in the dark. In fact, they're adapted to it, which is why the sun makes them sick. Too much light entering dialated dwarven pupils, trasmitting too much information to the dwarven brain.

No torches in the tunnels.
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Gazz

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 12:45:48 pm »

And what if you're building a dungeon for captured elves and tantric dwarves? (hmm, that didn't come out right)
You can't have a dungeon without sputtering torches stinking up the place. Attempting that would probably cause a tear in the fabric of fantasy.

Lighting a fortress at all times would require one helluvalot of fuel / wood and the logistics to refill/replace your combustibles.
I doubt that the game needs a whole new wing of maintainance tasks.
Magical glowstones - or specially bred glowmoss (far more likely!) - are better alternatives.

So farmers plant and harvest glowmoss. It is crafted into shiny glass orbs/lamps and provides maintainance-free illumination.

It's only stretching the glow ability a tiiiiny bit but hey - dwarves see okay without light so some illumination is just perfect for them.

I'd prefer light to have some beneficial effect (other then the item being "value" like yet another chair) but if it's required for workshops to work at the intended efficiency, I'd rather pass. Wouldn't want to calculate the light levels for all parts of all workshops to guarantee peak efficiency everywhere.

Maybe it could speed up item hauling? Dwarves see farther and can navigate road jams quicker. That would be a "nice to have" benefit but not feel like a major loss like workshops that produce inferior quality.

Light could also give a (very small!) extra benefit when seeing luxury items like a water fall or platinum statue garden.
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lucusLoC

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 01:12:29 pm »

lighting of various forms should be in, and is in the future dev. i am all for glow torches, but normal torches need to be in as well.

placing levers and presure plates into various items has been discussed hevily in the various mechanincs threads. futher discussion should probably be taken there.
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Moogie

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010, 02:17:42 am »

Ty for the replies. :]

I'd be quite satisfied with torches just being an un-interactive fluff item, until such a time as the lighting systems would be looked at more closely (if they will be). I think, at least initially, they could just be constructed with a log of wood (perhaps 1 log: 5 torches or so?) and access to a furnace or any other source of !!. Then an architect could go fit them to the walls and they'd just burn there forever without needing additional maintenance. Perhaps guards could also carry them around as part of their standard 'uniform'. :D

I don't see any really important reason why they should require additional labours to keep lit, as like Gazz mentioned, this would take up an annoying amount of fuel and time. But simply having them there would be amazing, IMO. I dunno, maybe it's just me; I must admit, I'm really into the whole fortress designing side of DF, and little aesthetic details like this please me greatly. :)

Also, on the point of Dwarves and their light-sensitivity/cave adaptation-- I must admit, I forgot about that for a sec. :) Though, sunlight is very much brighter than simple torches; and I do not think any creature capable of full eyesight can actually see in zero light, and this is where I think it would make sense to have torches (if only aesthetically, and not as an actual gameplay element). Even noctornal animals in the wild rely on the low ambient levels provided by the atmosphere, or reflected by the moon. Animals that live underground, in total darkness, are typically blind or have underdeveloped/vestigal eyes (because, obviously, it's impossible to see anything no matter how amazing your nightvision is).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 02:28:54 am by Moogie »
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Soulbourne

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2010, 08:30:10 pm »

Also....there is another possibility for dark sight.  When they enter utter blackness, they could have a third type of sensitive cell that is able to take out the wavelengths given off by heat.  This likely wouldn't be high detail, but combine that will a full dialation(IE, whole eye socket becomes an iris), and you could have a vision that detects objects based on heat...most objects would give off some light, though it'd deteriorate as temp goes down, but on many objects you could see well enough depending on the sensitivity of the cells.  Walk into bright light with your pupils stuck at eye socket size and you'd be in pain though, and you'd also see a lot more range than normal people.  This would have similar effects to certain non-lethal weapons that is used in low-no light areas.

Those suck btw...
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Andeerz

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2010, 03:00:38 am »

Well, anything with heat is technically emitting light, so such dark vision is concievable and actually occurs IRL!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared#Heat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_sensing_in_snakes

Anyway, I'm all for sconces.  I've always wanted to be able to ensconce something.  What a great word.  Ensconce.
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teloft

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2010, 06:22:20 pm »

Perhaps they "see" like bats, sending an audio signal end hearing it bounce of the rock,  thusly they also hear what rock type this is automatically. ;)

Perhaps they even have a mystical connection with stone and metal, sensing where it is at all times in the fiber of there senses.
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jaked122

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2010, 06:37:10 pm »

Perhaps they "see" like bats, sending an audio signal end hearing it bounce of the rock,  thusly they also hear what rock type this is automatically. ;)

Perhaps they even have a mystical connection with stone and metal, sensing where it is at all times in the fiber of there senses.
dwarves can use supersonic??? maybe this is why they become so confused on the rare occasion it hits something

CobaltKobold

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2010, 08:49:50 pm »

Wall-mounted levers would make noble/gremlin disposal a cinch. Pull the lever while standing on the trap[door]!
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Andeerz

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 01:03:55 am »

OR perhaps dwarves have a rhodopsin analogue that can undergo the appropriate conformational change when exposed to infra red radiation...  It wouldn't be that simple, though, I think.

Whatever... I think they should need visible spectrum light to see, and, therefore, sconces and torches and stuff should be in and necessary for a smooth running fort.
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teloft

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 08:59:43 am »

How about fuel, the fortress needs fuel for all the lighting. 

We could have options of using oil lamps or gas lamps... even to use fireflies that can be in aquariums, that would otherwise bother the dwarfs a lot.
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Caledonian

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Re: Wall-mounted torches, sconces, levers, et al.
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2010, 10:25:32 am »

Well, anything with heat is technically emitting light, so such dark vision is concievable and actually occurs IRL!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared#Heat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_sensing_in_snakes
  Yes, but the organism sensing the heat has to be cooler than the object or creature emitting the heat - which is why heatvision is something only cold-blooded creatures have.

I'd always considered Dwarves to be warm-blooded creatures.  Admittedly, there isn't enough evidence to really reach any conclusion, given the nature of DF, but presumably they're mammals.  So they could only 'see' things whose (body) temperature was higher than their own.  And there aren't likely to be many such things in an underground environment for any organism, much less a warm-blooded one.
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