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[Aqizzar]

I loves me some 4X games.  I loves me some city-state building games.  Total War, Galactic Civilizations, Tropico, Space Empires, the Caesars, SimCity, Startopia, the entire Sid Meier library.  Leading empires and directing governments.  Great games all.

However, I find that all of these games that are ostensibly about managing nations have very little nation management in them.  You don't have to wait for a legislature, or request authorization, or appoint ministers, or run campaigns.  Virtually all 4X/citybuilding games suffer the same logical quirks as Dwarf Fortress - you the player are an omniscient, omnipotent, autocratic hivemind ruling the structure of power and all military forces.

At worst, you might have to worry about how much your onerous government is oppressing the peasants, at the risk of losing taxes/production to crime and eventually (if you really suck) riots and revolts.  Usually put down by just stationing another cheap garrison unit in the area.  The only standouts I can remember were GalCiv and it's useless to the point of annoying Senate seatings, and Tropico where you just have to keep enough people happy/terrified to win a 100% turnout yes/no plurality poll once a decade if you feel like it.  Even games like Balance of Power and Shadow President, true to the name, consider the player an unchecked, unilateral actor who directs the entire government at a moment's notice.

So I'm wondering, does anyone know of any city/nation/empire management games that actually involve management and politics, and don't just cast the player as all but all powerful?  I know there's a couple "political simulation" games floating around, but they tend to suffer from terrible production values, and weird, overgamed, uneducated Ameri-centric models of how governance works.  More political hamstringing and frustration in an otherwise fun game is what I'm looking for.

[DJ]

I was thinking the same thing recently, only I wanted it to be a Holy Roman Empire sim rather than something more modern. Didn't have any luck finding such a game

[baruk]

King of Dragon Pass has the best political simulation I've encountered in a game. You are still essentially the omniscient guiding force making all the decisions for your clan - this doesn't bother me as the "game" is all about the feedback you get from these decisions.

Some form of omniscience seems the natural mode of these sorts of games - essentially an RPG where your character is a nation state.

Additionally, I should mention Floor 13 - your job is the head of a government ministry whose job is to protect ruling officials from scandals and newspaper exposes using the tools at your disposal.

[Ampersand]

Wellll, in Europa Universalis 3, there is a bit of Holy Roman Empire sim going on, but nothing extremely deep. I am aware that there are some mods in the work for the game that try to improve the HRE's interestingness.

But, in general, Paradox Interactive has been pretty keen on this. Trying to dramatically change your country, go to war on whimsy, attack everything in sight whenever the opportunity is presented is Punished. HEAVILY. In the Heir To the Throne expansion pack for EU3, there are three different statistics, Infamy, Legitimacy, and Stability, which operate in different ways to make ruling your country hell if you do it in a way that upsets, the international community, your citizens, or the Status Quo.

Usually, it is never a good idea to accept even a small stability drop (It's on a scale from -3 to 3,) and a drop of 3 or more can be disastrous. This can happen if you declare war on neighbors you have good relations with, without a good Causus Belli. such as them occupying land you have a legitimate claim on. That sort of thing. Revolt risks skyrocket when it dips below zero, you get fewer merchants, your tax and trade efficiency drops, and your Legitimacy drops.

Infamy is a score that starts at 0 and can reach arbitrarily high levels. If it goes above a certain limit determined by how good your leader is at diplomacy, and other factors, then every country in the word gets free reign to invade you for being Dishonorable Scum.

Legitimacy is something that only effects monarchies. As it drops, the morale of your troops declines, revolt risk rises, Pretenders to the crown start trying to take it from you violently, and other monarchies that have a royal marriage to your family can try to take your crown by force due to you lacking a decent claim to it.

Generally, it is a bad idea, very bad idea, to just be a prick to the world in EU3.

[Goron]

I think part of the problem is while some players would appreciate the game you seek, most would not.
Take the Democracy no-war ruling in Civ2. I hated that, it was annoying. But it (kind of) reflected the fact I was not supreme ruler.
I can imagine many people being unable to appreciate the balance of power you suggest in a game. It would feel limiting and stifling, a roadblock to progress, etc.
Honestly... I think I would probably fit in the boat of people that wouldn't enjoy that. Because within the confines of the game I would be unable to 'make my point' to the people in order to get backing for my cause. And if somehow I could, then that defeats the purpose of the checks and balances in the first place, if you can just bypass them.
Despite that, I'd still probably buy such a game to try it out:-)

[Rakonas]

I wouldn't consider EU3 to really be an example without Magna Mundi, personally.

[lumin]

I would recommend "Super Power" 1 and 2.  Both of these games have quite a bit of what you're looking for.  They got low scores by most reviewers, but I actually enjoyed them quite a bit.

It has a pretty high learning curve, but after you get the hang of it, it's quite fun.  My favorite part is that they tried to simulate each country exactly like their real-life counterpart, all the way down to the individual names/abilities of their arsenal (tanks, planes, soldiers, etc).  So it's really difficult to conquer the world as Peru, using their antiquated army, but really fun when you can pull it off.

[Goron]

I would recommend "Super Power" 1 and 2.  Both of these games have quite a bit of what you're looking for.  They got low scores by most reviewers, but I actually enjoyed them quite a bit.

It has a pretty high learning curve, but after you get the hang of it, it's quite fun.  My favorite part is that they tried to simulate each country exactly like their real-life counterpart, all the way down to the individual names/abilities of their arsenal (tanks, planes, soldiers, etc).  So it's really difficult to conquer the world as Peru, using their antiquated army, but really fun when you can pull it off.

I can't speak on Superpower 2, but I own Superpower 1 and it is not at all what he is looking for. You are able to control every aspect of your government at a moment's notice. There are no checks or balances.

[Virtz]

The last Romance of the Three Kingdoms released on PC did have you do things through your generals. As in once every turn, each commander can do some one thing related to kingdom managment and how well they do it depends on their stats. Although the kingdom managment felt rather simplistic being based on a few stats you didn't even need a whole page to list.

But in general, commanders were a valuable commodity and you had to persuade new ones to join you and to keep the ones already with you loyal by offering money, positions and such.

[Jude]

I dunno, given how I never managed to keep a Democracy or Republic government in Civ2 for more than a couple decades, I doubt I would like this kind of game. The second they voted that I couldn't go to war, I switched to Fundamentalism and imagined the whole senate being sacrificed to the gods.

[Goron]

I dunno, given how I never managed to keep a Democracy or Republic government in Civ2 for more than a couple decades, I doubt I would like this kind of game. The second they voted that I couldn't go to war, I switched to Fundamentalism and imagined the whole senate being sacrificed to the gods.

yep... and didn't the statue of liberty let you insta switch government to make it easier?

[Chutney]

Solium Infernum, from Cryptic Comet, makes you feel exactly like you're supposed to (a noble of Hell trying to take Satan's throne). Everything you do has to be cleared by the "Infernal Conclave" basically. You can't go to war without having a legitimate reason (a rival noble refusing a demand, or insulting you), and if you try to take down the Conclave you no longer have their protection. It's really, really good at making the environment you're in.

Yea Solium Infernum is my favorite game atm.

[Jude]

I dunno, given how I never managed to keep a Democracy or Republic government in Civ2 for more than a couple decades, I doubt I would like this kind of game. The second they voted that I couldn't go to war, I switched to Fundamentalism and imagined the whole senate being sacrificed to the gods.

yep... and didn't the statue of liberty let you insta switch government to make it easier?

Yeah, you better believe I built that thing every time. That and the Pyramids, which (for no reason I can discern) gave you a free granary in all current and future cities, no expiration date. Awesome.

[forsaken1111]

Yea Solium Infernum is my favorite game atm.

Yeah, goddamn is that game awesome.

[Servant Corps]

Take the Democracy no-war ruling in Civ2. I hated that, it was annoying.

Uh, how? I declare war, Senate gets angry, Anarchy ensures, I then restore Democracy.

Anyway, Aqizzar, Democracy 2, for all its quirks, had Political Capital, which limited the policies you can implement at any given time. You're still an absolute micro-manager, but you can only micro-manage so much. There are even several policies that are basically "off-limits" if you don't have the political capital (say, evolution/creationism). You also have to appoint Ministers to ensure (1) you actually gain political capital and (2) your policies get carried out effectively. Problem is, your Ministers also are in the pocket of factions; so you have to please those factions otherwise your lovely Minister will make a big fuss and resign.

Its American clone also apparently had the House and the Senate. If they are controlled by the opposition party, they can merely DELAY implementation of your policy, they can't block it. Still, if you want to ram through a popular policy near election time...

The only game that would please you, Aqizzar, is Hidden Agenda. You can't really micromanage in that game; basically the game just give you a dilemma, and you respond with your answer. My first game ended as me being a terrified Presidente cowering in my Presidental Palace as the right-wing military generals rig the polls and becomes the de facto rulers. And Hidden Agenda's Cabinet ministers are brutal; each Cabinet minister have a goal that they wish to pursue at all costs, and they are willing to launch a military coup to protect their pet project.

EDIT: My main goal is to get Captial Hill installed, where you play as just a regular Representative in the HoR and try to get elected Speaker of the House. That's it. No "good governance" required, just pure politicking in Congress and election campaigning at your home state.