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Author Topic: Steep Learning Curve  (Read 16111 times)

Hammurabi

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2010, 06:10:01 pm »

Good computer games typically involve series of interesting choices.  Do I allocate another dwarf to the military or to digging out more ore?  Should I make more stone goblets or smooth the walls in my dining room?  Do I need better defenses or more bedrooms?  DF thrives on these types of choices.  Dumbing it down would make it a crap game.

IMO, the Steep Learning Curve is the interface and documentation (or lack thereof).   For example, I just crafted some shiny new steel swords and want my soldiers to use them.  But the soldiers go grab the bronze swords.  The game is basically useless in helping me assign the steel swords.  The wiki has a 7 step procedure to solve this.  The game needs to simplify this action, without dumbing down the choices.

 



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Back in 1971, Nolan Bushnell of Atari said, "All the best games are easy to learn, and difficult to master," a design philosophy now treated as instinctual by nearly every designer in the industry.

Urist McDepravity

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2010, 06:35:40 pm »

Only problem i had when beginned play DF was not understanding why the hell they do not complete jobs i give them via job manager. It should probably tell somewhere that it does not work w/out office.
As for direct control - DF reminded me DK2, where you had no direct control over units as well.

However i still find machinery part a bit hard, and never go building any big stuff w/out wiki.
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Ayeohx

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2010, 06:44:29 pm »

It's a bit of an elitist game.  Before the tutorial and the wiki I tried the game and didn't get it.  I didn't understand the scale Toady was shooting for.  I learned with LittlePirate's tutorial and the wiki.  I didn't have any problems and I'm pretty unstoppable now. 

Only one of my friends play it.  The others want to but it's just too hard for them to grasp.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 06:34:53 pm by Ayeohx »
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Exponent

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2010, 07:01:52 pm »

Good computer games typically involve series of interesting choices.  Do I allocate another dwarf to the military or to digging out more ore?  Should I make more stone goblets or smooth the walls in my dining room?  Do I need better defenses or more bedrooms?  DF thrives on these types of choices.  Dumbing it down would make it a crap game.

I totally agree with this.  I love many of the choices a player needs to make when playing DF.  Unfortunately, my vague recollection claims that I was also constantly having to make an excessive number of decisions that I didn't care about at all, which is a major reason for why I haven't played the game in nearly a year (and thus why my recollection is vague).  I dream about the day when that will be different, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.   :'(
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LordNagash

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2010, 07:06:43 pm »

When I started playing I didn't really find it that difficult to puzzle out - I just kind of stuffed around until I figured out what I was doing, and if I had a really insurmountable problem I checked the forums. That was a long time ago though, so some of the game has got a lot more complicated I guess. It would be a bit more difficult to get started.

Still, at least you don't need to irrigate every season now (or at all, most maps)
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Dabi

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2010, 03:17:56 am »

..uhhh is it just me or is the interface really not that bad at all? I don't see a need for a change..
I've seen some interface designs people did - it's all ugly...i like only needing my keyboard...I can play with it on my laptop easy as anything.
I also find everything else just..easy.
When i found out about power It took me about 1minute or less to build my pumps to do it automatically...(except for the fact of the matter with the time it took to place.)

Everything to me seems logically put and i can find where things are easy as anything and i remember most things to find anything with keys just...like typing. I don't even need to think really of what to press when I want something placed.
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Soralin

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 04:47:41 am »

Yeah, I didn't have much problem with the learning curve either, I just looked through a bit of the beginning section on the first fortress.  Enough that I knew how to pause and look at things, which I did for a good while until I knew what things were.  I've played a lot of strategy and sim-type games, and a number of roguelikes and such, and ancient commodore 64 games with keyboard-only controls, and lack of in-game tutorials, and so on, so getting used to the graphics and interface wasn't hard.

The problem is, that seems to be nearly all of the challenge so far, learning the graphics and interface, after that, it's fairly easy (well, and figuring out what you need, in order to build what objects, and what it is that your dwarves actually need, and learning the world in general, etc.).  The learning curve is a brick wall, but once you get over it, you can slide back down the other side.  It probably helped that looking at it, and with the slogan "losing is fun", I was expecting something of nethack-level difficulty(and that's still what I'd like to see), so I built my first fort someplace that looked safe and remote, and focused on food, water, and defenses.

Once you've learned how things work though, it becomes easy to grow huge quantities of food, make tons of drink, keep everyone ecstatic, with a tiny amount of area, and just a handful of people.  Making your fortress completely-self sustaining is extremely easy, and making it completely impenetrable is easy too.  No need to worry about keeping your dwarves warm in the middle of a tundra in winter, or even about them wondering around outside naked, or walking around a scorching desert, unless you've modified the temperatures up to 1000 or something like that.(which I have done, and which is interesting, but doesn't really effect you much once you're settled in underground, and makes defending from attacks even easier than it already is).  Let alone worries about water or rain, when you don't even need the stuff.  Doors, walls, channels, bridges, heck even just the remove ramps command in the right location, any one of them alone can practically make an impenetrable fortress(along with, properly applied: floors, hatches, grates, bars, floodgates, removed stairs, obsidian, mining cave-ins, edges of workshops, pumps, windows, statues, even cultivating a tree to grow in the right place.).  Let alone traps, which can be built in huge quantities and kill things easily, and more elaborate defenses.  And even without that, how powerful just a handful of military can get with a bit of quick training.  And how quickly weapons and armor, and other crafts can be made to equip a huge number of them by just a single person, not to mention how quickly everything can be made, built, dug out, etc, even making huge-scale defenses, which you don't need, takes just a small amount of time and resources to build.  And how easily you could make hugely expensive things to buy anything you need, if you couldn't already make it all quickly enough.

Making the beginning learning easier would be nice, and could be helped out a lot with things like tutorials, a more useful manual, better information provided when looking at an object, etc.  But when you get past that, what would really be nice, would be to bring up the difficulty level dramatically, make it a difficulty curve, rather than a difficulty hump.  Give it a bit of effort even surviving in a calm temperate area, and a long time and a lot of dwarfpower to build or carve out a village, let alone a fortress, rather than just being able to send a single miner out, and have them finished in a season or something.  And much more of a challenge still building somewhere with a less hospitable climate, or more dangerous creatures, closer to a goblin tower, etc.  I've seen some complaints that things like this would make it too hard for people learning things at the beginning, but add in tutorials, or an easy mode that disables some of those things, that people can learn in before they move on to the real game. :)
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Hungry

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2010, 05:42:27 am »

...DF has less of a curve and more of a wavy line, because when you think you learn something you then learn shortly thereafter you were doing wrong.
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dennislp3

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2010, 11:26:45 am »

I didnt think it was to bad....quick run through the wiki to get started (same thing as looking at the manual or a small tutorial in any game) and if your open minded and willing to learn its really not that hard....but when you look at it and freak out and lay it down every 5 minutes...then yes its very very hard....sucks when things take effort nowadays huh?

BTW I love that little drawing of the learning curve lol
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Abaddon

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2010, 11:58:30 am »

I think it's kinda a double-edged sword. I love the complexity of the game and find it incredibly fun almost because it's so difficult to get your mind around.. however, it does make it difficult to pull others into enjoying it as well. However, I think a lot would be lost from the game if it ended up 'dumbed down' to pull in a larger audience.

I think one of the greatest parts about the game is how it's so easy to pick a path to failure, since it's not intuitively obvious what's the best way to manage your resources from the get go - or even what you need to do! That path of discovery (with a lot of trial and error) just makes successes even more satisfying to me.


Well said.  I find people I've spoken with who tried itg and gave up found it too in depth or complex, I usually have a mental shrug and think that's why you should love it.
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2010, 12:21:55 pm »

...DF has less of a curve and more of a wavy line, because when you think you learn something you then learn shortly thereafter you were doing wrong.
I always see it as unfairly angled stairs.
Steep angles followed by vertical cliffs. They are big stairs.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2010, 12:34:19 pm »

I always thought DF's learning curve was a lot like a stone cliff. Most first-time players try to scale its face, but some just dig in where they stand and emerge at the top in full adamantine platemail with a chained fire imp instead of a crossbow.
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Sindain

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2010, 12:45:26 pm »

i didn't have much  problem learning df... ADOM already adjusted me to many of the things that make figuring out df hard.. (spontaneous Fun, ASCII graphics, and moderately complicated interfaces)
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Percival

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2010, 02:10:18 pm »

My feelings are along the lines of Exponent's. The steep learning curve is not because of the game's complexity, but rather because the interface is sloppy.

Complexity is what makes this game fun and rich and excellent. But there are a lot of things that are needlessly complex and therefore needlessly off-putting. I think the people who really take to DF are mostly the type of people who connect with the richness of the game more naturally and are therefore willing to overlook the awkwardness. This does not make them special: I think in the long run the game makes sense and holds together (otherwise why would we like it?) and anyone can play it.

A couple examples of needless complexity:
-The disparity between how the designate functions operate and the build functions
-The unintuitive use of the word "build"
-The needless distinction between up, down and up/down stairs (as Exponent pointed out)
-Redundant menus
-The complexity of navigating different menus, for example, not being able to get to the Thoughts or Relationships screen from the View menus
-The tedium of scrolling through jobs selection - apps like DwarfTherapist remedy this, but we're talking about first impressions of the game here.
-Along the same lines: the inability to get a lot of good information about your dwarfs' status in the same place.

There are a lot more. Some are disputable, but I think these are all things that, once modified, could make the game much more approachable, without reducing the delicious bloats that make the game what it is.

The great thing is that it is a work in progress, and I think all these discussions will eventually lead to something both fun and tightly designed in the future, however distant it may be.
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jseah

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Re: Steep Learning Curve
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2010, 03:46:36 pm »

I didn't have much problem either.  I read in-game help and at least half the wiki before starting though.  I specifically didn't touch the tutorials so I could have a nice reminiscence about it later.  (like now)

But I did start with full knowledge that invaders couldn't cross walls, the approximate food&drink production/consumption rates and the entire dependency tree.  In fact, my first embark was a no-anvil embark since I figured I could do with a pair of crossbows and wooden bolts having read about the dwarven HEAP machinegun. 

I did also liberally abuse the game to the hilt.  Like conducting extensive terraforming to ensure huge sections of the map was under perfect control (invaders/traders/migrants could only spawn at a specific 10 squares if they wanted to ever get to the fortress, and it was guarded by 5 champion marksdwarves on rotation), trading roasts, employing perpetual motion machines and designate/undesignate statues to cancel parties.  Skinned every damn animal, kept population at 65 and used a mister + legendary dining room to escape a tantrum sprial.  Was also careful about water and magma to the point of paranoia.  (had 'airlocks' built around exposed areas; should they ever flood for any reason, the corridors will auto-shut from the water-sensitive pressure plates and would have to be deconstructed if I wanted access while the water is still there, damning all dwarves still in the 'wet zone' but I considered it a price to pay)

I did choose a map with half-an-aquifer, magma and an underground river.  Didn't have to deal with the aquifer and had it merely to try the aquifer punching-techniques when the fort was stable. 
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