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[Jude]

Aw c'mon, Leonard Cohen songs were made for scenes like that.

NOT THIS ONE! It could have been "Chelsea Hotel," you know, the one explicitly about getting skull from Janis Joplin. Or else "Sisters of Mercy" (love that song).

Actually, I can't remember the music from Avatar. Trying to think back I just assume it must have been the usual bombastic orchestra that's been ubiquitous ever since Star Wars.

That reminds me of something on NPR I heard about the music from Battlestar Galactica, which is also supposed to be awesome. No time to check it out now though cause I'm leaving the country in three goddam weeks wooooooooooo

[Strife26]

Aw c'mon, Leonard Cohen songs were made for scenes like that.  But yes, the alien-catsex scene was fucking ridiculous.  It reminded me of the puppet sex in Team America in its length and attention to detail.  Funnily enough, I remember the audience at the theater I was in didn't react nearly as strongly as I did.

It wasn't THAT long, and it was important to clearly establish the love plot, which is crucial to make Jake's going nativeness a solid motivator. Plus, how can you argue if it generates

"You let me down, son; so what you, you found yourself some local tail, and you just completely forget what team you're playing for?"

-The late, lamented Colonel


Shall I start another thread to contain the evolutionary and military stuff?

[Jude]

Nah.

I'm still actually wondering about my original question that derailed everything, which is why exactly was Jake's betrayal so despicable?

[Aqizzar]

Actually, I can't remember the music from Avatar. Trying to think back I just assume it must have been the usual bombastic orchestra that's been ubiquitous ever since Star Wars.

I mostly remember a lot of African-tribal style childrens choirs.  To the point that you could tell what the scene was going to be about depending on whether there were children singing (happy shiny spacecat time) or Starship Troopers bombast (guess who's coming to dinner).

Shall I start another thread to contain the evolutionary and military stuff?

Nah, this thread's fine for containing all Avatar discussion.  Let's not let it spread.

I'm still actually wondering about my original question that derailed everything, which is why exactly was Jake's betrayal so despicable?

Didn't we beat that horse into the ground enough already?  Please?

[Jude]

Didn't we beat that horse into the ground enough already?  Please?

I never actually got Strife's thoughts on that specific question, which is originally what I wanted

[Huesoo]

Lets talk about Avatar guys. I hate how the plot was pretty much just a massive analogy for those peaceful and lovable Native Americans getting their naive asses kicked by the evil imperialistic british love the graphics.

[Strife26]

A few main reasons.

1) Quaritch is a badass.
Seriously, his presence alone scores major points for the human side.

2) Badly done Black and White morality.
The navi rock was done pretty ham fistly throughout the movie. There's a strong tendency to root for the empire, just becuase the catsmurfs are so. damn. preachy.

3) Soldiers = bad vs leadership = bad
Cameron didn't spend enough time painting the human leadership as bad (it's kinda in the backstory with the oligarchy and all, but not enough). He spent more time painting the common marine and Colonel Q (who's a soldier's soldier) as being bad. The common grunt being evil is not a point that fits well with humanity.

4) Look at what Jake got
Jake got a great deal. He was offered a once-in-a-lifetime chance to do something important. Hell, you saw how Quaritch went out of his way to try to get him a new Spine.

All in all. it's becuase painting humanity as evil wasn't done very well, Quaritch is made of awesome, and Jake's motivation is largely spelled out by
"You let me down, son; so what you, you found yourself some local tail, and you just completely forget what team you're playing for?"

Most people would agree that humanity went too far in their attack,  but they were clearly trying a peaceful solution. The avatars were NOT working all that hard to get the Na'vi to understand what their position was.

[Jude]

Most people would agree that humanity went too far in their attack,  but they were clearly trying a peaceful solution. The avatars were NOT working all that hard to get the Na'vi to understand what their position was.

Huh? They blew up the Navi's city! Plus, a peaceful solution would be for the humans to leave. It's not like they had any morally defensible claim to the place.

Also, Colonel Q was a bloodthirsty dick. How does being badass excuse wanting to kill sentient beings because they're in your way?

I didn't like the overly utopian portrayal of Navi society either, but within the suspension of disbelief required for the movie, you can't say there's any doubt that they have 100% of the moral highground.

[Aqizzar]

Also, Colonel Q was a bloodthirsty dick. How does being badass excuse wanting to kill sentient beings because they're in your way?

You do remember what forum you're on right?

Round 'n round 'n round we go, where the thread stops, nobody knows...

[Jude]

Also, Colonel Q was a bloodthirsty dick. How does being badass excuse wanting to kill sentient beings because they're in your way?

You do remember what forum you're on right?

Hahahahahaahah true. Well I'd hope people's moral reasoning within DF does not apply outside it.

[Forumsdwarf]

The point about "war crimes" being used as a political football stands.

I'm still not even sure what you're talking about. Can you give some IRL examples?

Britain finding Tzipi Livni guilty of "war crimes".  Her crime?  Fighting a war with Hamas to neutralize their artillery batteries, which they had been using to indiscriminately target Israeli civilians.
Not exactly the Bataan Death March, is it?
War is hell and people get hurt.  A "war crime" is something worse or it has no meaning -- if every nation at war becomes guilty of "war crimes" we're back to victor's justice, as a nation pressed into war, particularly in self-defense, will not see itself as automatically guilty of "war crimes" simply for fighting to survive.

or else your thinking is garbled.

Dude ... if you think I'm arguing the creationist position it is your thinking that is garbled.

Go back, re-read.  I am arguing for evolution against a skeptic who may or may not be a creationist (he hasn't come out and said it).

Hint: If a message is from me and there's a creationist argument inside quote tags that's the other guy's argument, not mine.

I didn't realize you had made a simple logical mistake, which is the idea that proving part (an observable phenomenon) proves the whole (a conjecture based on observable phenomena).

Horseshit.  You invalidated the entire theory of evolution for the past 50 years and I provided an example that validated part of it, namely antibiotic resistance.
Then you went off on some crazy shit about how your mind was working on such a higher level than mine I wasn't even worthy of debating you.
You are still clinging to that bizarre belief and reading into what I say whatever you have to to justify it.  I never said antibiotic resistance proved speciation, but claiming that wasn't necessary in the first place for me to prove you wrong because your initial statement was such a broad generalization as to be obviously, stupidly, ignorantly wrong.
And you still don't realize it -- and you're still condescending, apparently backtracking from your claims of transcendent expertise in biology to instead style yourself some kind of logic expert.
Give it a rest.
Here is what you said, one more time:

Biological evolution is wishful thinking, violating everything we have learned about biology for the last 50+ years.

That line is obvious bullshit.  Do you still maintain its validity?  If so, the ever-evolving phenomenon of antibiotic resistance still proves you wrong.

[Bauglir]

To be fair, Colonel McBadass seemed to actually be more about vengeance for all the people, including probably friends, he'd seen killed on Pandora. He didn't seem to care about the economics at all, really. He was angry and the Na'vi were not only convenient targets, but partially responsible for what he viewed as a grave injustice (while the Na'vi view the human intrusion and lack of concern for their culture as the grave injustice). It's clear that he's sufficiently prideful that he doesn't even consider the possibility that his side is wrong, but his motivation is mostly (what he views as righteous) vengeance. Or at least, that's what I got out of it.

[Strife26]

To be fair, Colonel McBadass seemed to actually be more about vengeance for all the people, including probably friends, he'd seen killed on Pandora. He didn't seem to care about the economics at all, really. He was angry and the Na'vi were not only convenient targets, but partially responsible for what he viewed as a grave injustice (while the Na'vi view the human intrusion and lack of concern for their culture as the grave injustice). It's clear that he's sufficiently prideful that he doesn't even consider the possibility that his side is wrong, but his motivation is mostly (what he views as righteous) vengeance. Or at least, that's what I got out of it.

I saw the Colonel's view more as "the lace panty (avatar) diplomatic approach hasn't worked (and most students of military history realize that blood and iron tends to settle the issues of the day) so it's time to do it the proper, heavy metal way."
In the Colonel's mind, the Na'vi are clearly not suitable to talk (he's the one who has to deal with them ATTACKING and KILLING HIS BOYS). Hell, look at the cracked article on SNAFU for the mindset. I know that, in my place, I'd choose the 200 dead Na'vi and the problem being over (they're suitably cowed enough not to fuck with his troops, and humanity doesn't have to expand much further for more unobtanium). I feel terrible about it for the rest of my life, but I'd do give that order (and he definitely took steps to try to protect the Na'vi, he gave the Avatar program lots of time in the world, and only gave up on it when his own Protege Jake, a fellow Marine, went native, cementing, in his mind, that only brute force would solve the problem).
Unobtanium seems to be crucial to a space fearing human life. Not even way better than second place like oil is today, but absolutely critical. In his mind, one brute attack is better than years of fighting and dead marines.

Also the fact that Jake turns his back on Always Faithful sticks in a few mouths, I'm sure.

[Neruz]

Aw c'mon, Leonard Cohen songs were made for scenes like that.  But yes, the alien-catsex scene was fucking ridiculous.  It reminded me of the puppet sex in Team America in its length and attention to detail.  Funnily enough, I remember the audience at the theater I was in didn't react nearly as strongly as I did.

The stupidest part is that they didn't mesh their neural linky things.

You would have thought, in a culture of creatures that have the ability to mentally link with other creatures, the height of intimacy would be to do so with your partnet.

NOPE. They bone just the way we do.

[Aqizzar]

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Jake? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the Na'vi, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the Na'vi's destruction, while tragic, saved lives and human civilization. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a pickup line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the air-shield of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post.