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Author Topic: Game Idea: The Metropolis  (Read 3421 times)

Soadreqm

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2010, 02:33:19 pm »

I really like the concept of people not necessarily caring about your zoning. If you don't shovel enough money to law enforcement, people will start erecting cute steampunk metal huts everywhere, and residential areas will sprawl, leading to all-around inefficiency when areas are weighing more than they should and poor people are stealing water and electricity by just tapping to the lines wherever.

And on the other hand, no matter how badly you screw things up, things will never be truly destroyed. Sure, a whole city segment fell all the way to ground level, and the area is now a radioactive hellhole with weekly portal storms and sandworms roaming the streets, but there will always be someone living there. And even if trying to directly collect taxes from them would be more trouble than it's worth, you can still make a profit by trading food for some ornately carved sandworm teeth.

Also, things rotting. Everything's constatly detoriating, and you must keep fixing things or they start breaking down. Like the funding sliders from Sim City, but more flexible. Maybe some agencies could become multipurpose when you give them enough money. Power plant maintendance technicians who are genetically enhanced supermen in powered armour who also put out fires and help with law enforcement. Or a fire department equipped to deal with hell portals accidentally opened by your teleportation research.

And of course there isn't enough money to keep everything maxed, so you have to choose between balancing them all to a safe but suboptimal level, or funding a few areas at the expense of others. And you must use this same money to build stuff, so you'll have to neglect maintaining the city if you want things built faster.

As for time, I suggest you just add clinical immortality to the fluff. Things can take generations, but futuristic medical technology allows people to live effectively forever as long as they can afford the treatments. And if you keep the city habitable and produce enough food, the underclasses will breed like rabbits.
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alway

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2010, 05:10:13 pm »

IMO, if this is to have even a tiny sliver of a chance of being prototyped, the whole "watch individuals go about their business" idea must be removed. It would require both way to much computing power and way to much programming time for it to be practical. The data could then be abstracted through functions of time. For example:

change in bridge strength = -(change in time*traffic)/(bridge quality*bridge strength)

With traffic being modeled based on time of day as well as other factors (since even if going with the sim-city time dilation model it still makes sense to model days due to such large fluctuations over the course of a day). By using some variation on a sine wave, most things should be able to be modeled relatively well with only a tiny amount of computation. By adding a small random factor, it could be made to seem even more realistic.

As for graphics, the best way would probably be 3D with Visual Fortress style sliders to determine the elevation levels shown. However, unlike Visual Fortress, the sliders would be based on distance rather than building stories, allowing for stories to be added which do not have pre-defined heights to them. You want the peon housing to have a 2 meter ceiling while the rich have a 3.6 meter ceiling? Can do!
However, one must also remember the scale being worked with. For this concept to work effectively, one must also be able to set up rules which AI will use to create new parts/zones of the building when and where designated. This will require interfaces allowing the player to set said rules, which could become quite complex. These rule sheets should have varying layers to them to suit the needs of players ranging from beginning noobs to advanced users. A beginner may only want to set the height of the stories, the general strength of the areas, be sure there is a way to get into the area, and be sure basic ammenities will be available there. More advanced players may want much more detail in their rules; they may want to dictate the material and thickness of the support pillars, arrangement patterns for said pillars, and the availability of individual amenities in certain areas of the newly built area.
And of course if they don't want to mess with rules for construction, they could do the whole process by hand.
Considering the size we are dealing with, the player should not be forced to bother with anything smaller than a parking garage if they do not want to.
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2010, 08:54:30 pm »

Maybe, rather than bothering with calculating a sine often, store a graph initially set to an approximation of a sine, but slowly adjusting based on in-game factors. If you have a list of the average use of <something> each hour of the day, then an evacuation can be simulated by simply setting it to maximum at all times until it is finished. Or maybe you declare 20 hour days, so that people do everything 4 hours earlier each day, or maybe night after a few days. It could tolerate the rich paying a "day tax" to continue at the normal times, while all the rest are actively hunted at "night" (The 10 hours when they must sleep rather than the 10 that they work).
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IronyOwl

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2010, 09:00:29 pm »

I'm not certain I see the logic in stating that seeing individuals is infeasible, but the game should support differing ceiling heights in the tenths of meters.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2010, 09:31:50 pm »

Regarding stress/use calculations: they would have to be averages over time, applied intermittently instead of constantly.  Bridges for example - structures usually fail when they're most loaded, so the stress averages applied against their integrity should lean towards the maximum load suggested by the surrounding conditions.

Even on the SimCity super-fast timescale, in-game days would be seconds long at most in a reasonable simulation time.  Although even then, being able to alter the timerate is absolutely necessary.  Consider X-COM time for instance; crisis management would be carried out at a 1 second to 5 seconds scale, and you can crank up the time flow when nothing is happening so that you're watching a city evolve instead of an electronic fishtank.  Pretty basic stuff really.

As for observing the people in the city, I certainly didn't mean being able to zoom from full-city view to street view.  I'm well aware of the graphical limitations of computers, and even were it feasible that level of detail tracking wouldn't add much to the enjoyment.  At most, you could watch general traffic flowing through lanes and big factories working, but that's at the general simulation level.  I do like the much easier abstraction method.  Take the population percentages, crime rates, resources, styles, so on and so forth of an area, and generate a temporary "snapshot" scene of whatever you're looking at based on the averages.  It would certainly fit the theme of the game to peer through your Big Brother camera towers or street agents and get a human idea of what's happening in your city.

For that matter, something I just remembered was how to extend the distance/random effect even to observation.  You only know what the cameras and agents can tell you, so even your assessment of an area could be incomplete.  If the local criminals get really good at subverting the security, or killing the census takers, you'd just know there's some severe problem in that area without really knowing what.  You personal observation efforts like above might even catch something you didn't know.

And as a last brainstorm - One of my favorite features in the history of dictator-games was the Possession mechanic in Dungeon Keeper, the ability to walk around in and interact with your base.  Actually requiring the player to do this would be way too much to ask and totally out of keeping with the scale, but it'd be a great option for a player of a egotistical, hands-on governor to mount up his Praetorians and drive around the city, parading for the locals and hunting mutants.  It'd be an exercise in pure vanity that would test the limits of the population-perception system, and require a whole other FPS-style game to be bunged into the system, but it would be undeniably cool.
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2010, 06:55:27 am »

It all depends on how much detail you put in. If a person is only shown as a 100 polygon object, and only shown at greater detail when you go out in person, and if the buildings try to be somewhat angular or similarily low detail at low zoom levels, then graphics would be unlikely to be a major bottleneck.

However, if you strive to show people in detail that rivals real life, it would likely have problems drawing even three at once.


Unless this game was made by a major company, it would probably end up with poor graphics(compared to all those newer games) but great gameplay.

Actually, maybe have the overview mode shown as more of a schematic or computer-generated image, while putting actual detail into camera and in-person views. That way, you would be completely justified with leaving out people entirely. Then add the possibility of both mounnted cameras and flying remote camera robots so that you *could* explore a flythrough of the actual city.

Add sufficient smog/whatever that you can't see more than a few blocks from that mode, and it would be quite easy to draw it all.
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Outcast Orange

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2010, 09:25:05 am »

I read a large part of this, really like the idea.

I think one of the basic concepts, the structure of the city, is very similar to an idea I've been working on for some time; http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=48617.0

Basically, legos.  Where in the basic blocks have some innate functionalities, that end up being combined and creating incredibly complex overall systems.  The part where you talk about cutting oxygen off to parts of the city really caught my attention.  It would be very hard to program that in directly, but if your building structures have some innate characteristics like volume and connection points, then all you have to do is extend a base object to act like a cut off valve.

Anyway good luck!

Oh god, your still thinking about doing that?!
I hope you do.
That is an awesome idea.

Aqizzar, nice to see you creating a thread down here.
Sometimes I think this part of the forum is drying up.
Awesome game idea though.
I should have posted when I read it two days ago.
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Supermikhail

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2010, 09:58:17 am »

This part of the forum isn't drying up, it's just much harder to create something than to throw dust into the air over some completely subjective notion...

To get back on topic: I'll once again (in this forum) be as bold as to propose making a design document for this thing. I think there are enough basic ideas to start assembling something more structured. Someone could even sketch some concept art, or program some simple simulations...
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Shades

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2010, 10:06:36 am »

This part of the forum isn't drying up, it's just much harder to create something than to throw dust into the air over some completely subjective notion...

I'd have said it's easy to come up with grand ideas and designs but much harder to come up with ones that can be done in a reasonable time and are still good. Then again I'd have never attempted to write DF for the same reason the scope is not sensible for a small team... :)
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alway

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2010, 02:58:06 pm »

This part of the forum isn't drying up, it's just much harder to create something than to throw dust into the air over some completely subjective notion...
This. After all, the entire forum only has 24 pages, 2.5 of which have been active in the last month.  Hardly drying up... It is a shame that not very many venture here often though.

Annnnd back on topic. On the one hand, modeling and drawing everything which goes on is impossible due to programming and CPU time for anything larger than an appartment building. On the other hand though, interacting with what amounts to graphs, forms, and rectangles is no fun at all. One thing that does have me a bit confused is the scale of the thing. You say a "nation in a building" but then talk about things like micromanaging pipes. What sort of scale, exactly, will this be on? 1000 people? 10,000? 100,000? 100 million?
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JoshuaFH

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2010, 03:23:25 pm »

I don't know about population limitations. In Rollercoaster Tycoon you could have 1000+ guests wandering around, each with their own stats, inventory, history, and name and it ran just fine on my relatively crappy computer... AND it had impressive realtime physics to boot. That was made years ago, I wonder how big a modern game could be made to be?

How would you intend this game to be played anyhow? Like a Simcity game, or like a "You're sitting in your office and you just have to control everything from your desk computer and secretaries" sort of game, with monitors on the wall showing you every sector of the city, given that there are cameras there?
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2010, 07:29:49 pm »

I suspect that RCT games, and likely many potential implementations of this idea, would run as graphs, forms, and tables in the background and display only the visible parts to the player.

{What follows are merely my theories of how it might work, not backed by any research}

Rollercoaster train A is on track B, section C, N pixels along, traveling at D pixels per second. Frame is one Eth of a second, so move it by D/E pixels and apply track-based acceleration. If section C is within view of the player, calculate the orientation of each car and draw them on the screen.

People would likely be merely points on a node graph of all paths until they came within view, so between nodes they merely increment their virtual progress toward the next node, and their actual position would be irrelevant unless within view...


So, applied to this idea, if any person not within an active(visible) block just incremented their progress, and when they finished, momentarily consider some factors and decide what to do next, it would be quite fast to calculate. When the player sees them, the game can convert that 83% of common path N into a physical position, plus a slight reasonable offset based on crowding and shape so that they aren't either all walking an invisible line or standing partly through someone else. While the player can see them, and likely until they are out of view for at least 10 seconds, it should cache their calculated position so that as far as the player can tell, everyone is being individually simulated in realtime despite being more crowded then an entire MMORPG crammed within a single area, and ignoring the fact that their PC is certainly less than the countless servers required to host such a load in online games, and further disregarding that AI calculations would likely take much more calculation than a load of players...

So, as long as the player can't discern otherwise, making it seem like the game went to all the trouble of simulating every single character while taking the easy way of simply incrementing a number for most of them would be sufficient.

It doesn't nessecarily have to simulate them all, though. Creating a sampling of the population and simply generating a plausible scene based on that would be sufficient. One flaw, however: What if you watched one person for 48 ingame hours or more? Would the AI shortcut reveal itself in such an action as the person never returning to sleep, or going to a random room each time, or having an overall lack of coordination in their imaginary schedule?
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Supermikhail

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2010, 07:53:52 am »

I don't see why sampled population wouldn't sleep. There may be a problem with syncing different activities, but it's for programmers to solve.

I've been trying to visualize the interface (poorly),
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
and I think that simish-civish layout should work. First, you move between levels with a button, like in Sims, second, you've got your ministers for stuff, to notify you when something need attention. You can move camera freely, but you can see in realtime only what your friendly units see, and here friendly are only your spies and surveillance. And, maybe, police, some kind of CIA.
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Shades

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2010, 08:49:28 am »

First, you move between levels with a button, like in Sims,

This would not be fun with skyscrapers, although I admit to not being able to think of a better option. Also http://www.boingboing.net/features/morerock.html is interestingly relevant.
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Supermikhail

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Re: Game Idea: The Metropolis
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2010, 09:23:16 am »

A slider instead of a button, interacting with your zooming? An ability to position the camera (the view) vertically or move into isometric view?
Anyway
Also http://www.boingboing.net/features/morerock.html is interestingly relevant.
Interestingly relevant to the whole Game Idea division of the forum.
The programming of this game should really start with graphs and charts, mathematical simulation. Although, I'm a layman here, and cannot participate with anything but doodles and writing.
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