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[cerapa]

DF procedurally generates but it's still different every time.

It is randomly generated. It takes a random seed and uses it for procedurally generating a world.

[Sean Mirrsen]

"Procedural" and "random" are independent. Demoscenes are procedural, but (usually) not random. Dungeons in Diablo are random, but not procedural. DF's landscape generation is both random and procedural. One is about being created on-the-fly from basic components (or code), the other is about being created without a predetermined design.

[Vattic]

kkrieger is only procedural, I edited my original post earlier this morning in correction. I've made it look like I don't know the difference by mistakenly claiming kkrieger has randomly generated levels.

I'd have to argue though that dungeons in Diablo are not completely random and are procedurally generated to an extent in that they are created on-the-fly from basic components and do have a certain loose predefined design.

DF procedurally generates but it's still different every time.

It is randomly generated. It takes a random seed and uses it for procedurally generating a world.

I don't mean to come across as argumentative here but didn't you just repeat back to me what I said but with more detail? I think we're in agreement.

[cerapa]

It seemed like you were thinking that procedural meant random. I dont know how though since you were saying the opposite with that "but".

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

kkrieger is still a potential distribution method. Instead of dealing with the bottleneck of data transmission, the bottleneck is computing power to "decompress" (or "build" if you prefer) the game on your computer. Note that kkrieger can fit on a 1.44mb floppy disk. Imagine a game that would need to be distributed on six DVDs instead coming on one. Or a six-hour download truncated to just one hour. Of course installation takes hours, but whatever.

Ideally you'd build it just the first time you run it, and it would save its finished data, to save loading time at the expense of storage space. I don't see a reason to spend resources building models and textures during gameplay when all those resources are needed just to display everything.

Anyone have a good reason for doing that?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Memory issues. Presuming completely procedural generation, storing a procedural object in memory is much easier than a pre-created object. If you have a magnificent arch that's actually four primitives with a fractal detail texture, it'll take up less memory if you just store it as primitive information and the generation seed. Same goes to, for example, masses of different creatures. If every creature had its own distinct look, storing them all would take humongous amounts of disk space and RAM - but if they're all following a generation pattern, you only need their creation seed and a few algorithms to be able to dynamically cull the invisible parts. You could literally have a crowd of people no two of which look the same, all with the RAM requirement of any premade textures and the different seeds used for the people's generation. This is all theoretical of course, I don't think it's been put to use yet.

[Virex]

On the other hand, ensuring that procedualy generated object actualy look somewhat convincing is quite hard. Most combinations of functions end up looking utterly weird when combined with eachother (think DF's tendency to place not quite compatible land types togheter, like forrests next to deserts etc.)

[Sean Mirrsen]

It doesn't really "place" them together so much as they happen to "be" together. It's running a simulation-y process that determines which area is which by the temperature/elevation/rainfall/drainage combination, so if anything, it's just imperfect simulation.

As to being convincing, well, it really depends on what you're making. Photorealistic stuff is right out, at least until better CPUs are available, but more cartoonish things would be much easier. Think Spore. It's just a series of metaballs and metaedges clumped together with a few premade items. Those items could also be made in a similar manner, and with a little guidance the Creature Creator could easily generate seeded random creatures that would look convincing to any non-biologist.

[Volatar]

At a moment past in my life, I held the collectors edition of Hellgate London in one hand, and the Orange Box in the other. I had money for only one of them.

I picked the wrong one 

Sucks to be you.  Did you at least avoid paying the lifetime subscription fee?*

*For those not in the know: it was equivalent of paying for a full year.  The game had severs for 11 months and was "free for everyone" the two months prior final closing.

Yeah, I only bought the collectors edition, not the lifetime subscription. The subscription was worthless anyways.

The game would still be good if they had allowed LAN play. They wanted to drive off all the pirates though, and made it SP and MMO only 

[Xotes]

So Hellgate is playable alone, eh?

*waves his pirate flag*

Oh, and this thread gave me the name of Nosferatu, and I've been searching for it for years. Yea verily, I am grateful.

[Vattic]

With all this talk of procedural generation and random levels I cant help but think of Love I believe there was a recent major release of this FPS MMO. The geography of the planet shifts over time and settlements rise and fall as you fight it out together against the AI for survival.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

No Problem, I could have been clearer.

[HonkyPunch]

^and that is how every forum argument should be resolved.
I do recall playing another game with a random level generation type thing, but I just can't think of what it is right now.

[Draco18s]

With all this talk of procedural generation and random levels I cant help but think of Love I believe there was a recent major release of this FPS MMO. The geography of the planet shifts over time and settlements rise and fall as you fight it out together against the AI for survival

It'll be neat if and when it ever gets released.

[Vattic]

It is released, admittedly there is room for improvement if that's what you mean.

[Draco18s]

It is released, admittedly there is room for improvement if that's what you mean.

Really?  Last I saw it was still unreleased, just a few demo vids and some closed testing.