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[Jimmy]

One of my preferred mods involved substituting giant rats as the domestic livestock of the dwarven civilizations. Basically any of the chasm creature types would be much more themed for dwarves to tame and use.

[shadowclasper]

Hamfisting in new animals or arbitrarily limiting dwarves to only a portion of the livestock variety would add little in the way of flavor.

That there isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that they should START with more dwarfy live stock. You shouldn't be ABLE to begin with dogs, cats, etc.etc.

Instead you should have Cave Hoppers (omnivorous cave lizards) in place of cats.
Cave Bears in place of dogs.
Pigs and Goats in place of cows and horses, or other mountain animals.
Purring Maggots should definitely be made to be milkable more often than once every 3 months, and not vermin to be eaten, since they're the source of dwarf milk.

These should be dwarven starting animals.

You should be able to BUY anything later off of other races. But you should never be able to START with non dwarfy things.

Also, cave bears were a species of bears who went extinct, but while they lived their primary habitat was underground.

[Pilsu]

Dogs owe their trainability and social aptitude to their pack animal nature. Bears would not have that. Not only are these things massive compared to dogs, studies of their teeth seem to indicate they were largely herbivorous with occasional scavenging. They are likely not physically built to the roles we domesticated dogs for. Now, bears are pretty dwarfy but I don't think such an ornery, solitary animal would fill the slot of dogs very well. Cavalry, perhaps. I wish their name wasn't so silly though.

I don't think a hopping predator could reasonably catch vermin like rats. I could see some predatory form of bat being more apt for it. Not sure either critter is particularly dwarfy though.

Pigs and goats are human livestock as well, hence the arbitrary limits.

[Os Q]

Aside from guano (which is somewhat useful for fertilizer and [gunpowder?]) and how they eat bugs, it think bats would be more trouble than they would be worth as livestock. I think rabies would be a huge problem, esp. if you would try to milk them...
On the other hand, maybe they could be used as a sort of warning system for the deeper parts of the caverns. Bat-traps!

Cave bears sound cool as a sort of expensive luxury pet, but I would think of the average dwarf prefering a big, mean, dog for protection.

[Pilsu]

If they're conceived as a cat replacement, I doubt milking would be done. Unless we can milk cats too which is just weird.

The shit would be a real problem though, can't train a bat to poop in a box of sand and considering it'd probably spend time in the roof, it would get into worse places than cat poo does

[Asewl]

You guys are forgetting in the current verision 40d19 there is no fese or urine to speak of.  Also from what I read they don't plan to add anything other than blood, vomit, and organs that could possibly come out of a living animal because it produced to much lag (just think of the item quantity alone not to mention hauling it all to refuse.)  So i don't think we need to worry about bat quano covering our fortressis.  I personally think the dwarfs should have more dwarfy animals it would make it more realistick.  Also on the subject of Cave Bears replacing dogs that is totally doable.  Any animal can be trained and tamed even in our world just with some they keep some of there wildness with them.  I don't think the little wildness in a bear would harm the dwarfs much because dwarfs in the sentiant beast line up tend to be part wild to.

1.Elves: Sophistacated wise


2. Humans: Tame hard working just don't get them made

3.Dwarfs:  Tame but short fuse and hold grudges for as long as the speices last

4.Goblins and others:  Wild animals that eat others

This is how i veiw the sentient line up in the game and if you lined up animals in how they trained the bear would be a three too so I think the dwarfs can handle them.  Plus just think about it you send you pack of savage war bears to go tear the goblin armies to shreds.  The goblins see them coming and try to run or shoot but the bears are to quick and strong and tear their army to shreds while your dwarfs stay in side sipping hot purring magot milk with dwarfivn cheese and crackers betting on which goblins will last the longest and whose bear will kill the most.  plus bears are stronger than dogs so they wouldn't get torn apart like dogs do.

[Jimmy]

Swap 1 with 4 and you'd be about right.

[Asewl]

i will keep that in mind

[Lancensis]

Also, cave bears were a species of bears who went extinct, but while they lived their primary habitat was underground.

They slept in caves like any other bear. They weren't living out their lives shuffling around in grim twilight grottos.

[NW_Kohaku]

That there isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that they should START with more dwarfy live stock. You shouldn't be ABLE to begin with dogs, cats, etc.etc.

Instead you should have Cave Hoppers (omnivorous cave lizards) in place of cats.
Cave Bears in place of dogs.
Pigs and Goats in place of cows and horses, or other mountain animals.
Purring Maggots should definitely be made to be milkable more often than once every 3 months, and not vermin to be eaten, since they're the source of dwarf milk.

These should be dwarven starting animals.

You should be able to BUY anything later off of other races. But you should never be able to START with non dwarfy things.

Also, cave bears were a species of bears who went extinct, but while they lived their primary habitat was underground.

Cave Bear Cavalry!  WOOO!

Sorry.

Anyway, yeah, I can agree to this, mostly...

I... uh... still don't like the notion of making cheese out of... well, WHATEVER you do to get "milk" out of a giant maggot.

You forget that wild birds need to be able to lay eggs too. It's a good placeholder but it must not be a permanent measure.

Wild birds don't lay unfertilized eggs that are easily edible.  Chickens, which frequenly lay eggs, even when they are unfertilized are a bit of an anomoly, and are that way because of a great many generations of domesticating chickens specifically for the purpose of laying eggs.

Why would a boar live in a cave?

Because that's where food is.  Dwarf Fortress takes place in a magical world where underground plants and fungi grow abundantly, and boars are a scavenger species not terribly afraid of a little digging or rooting around for mushrooms, while being capable of fighting with larger predators.

Moles aren't predatory

So what?  They're giant ridable creatures that can dig and have sharp claws.  And...

and worms are too stupid to control.

This is a FANTASY WORLD.  Were you screaming at Dune for having worms whose skin would not be able to handle acts like respiration because of their sheer size?  I use these creatures because they are creatures adapted in general terms for a life of burrowing that could fairly easily be concieved of being tamed.  Sure, I could go with "burrowing horses", but a horse isn't in the shape of a burrowing creature, now is it?

As is, there are no good cavey alternatives, hence the hamfisting.

As is, there is little life underground.  Are you going to go tell Toady his attempts to make underground mushroom-tree forests must be taken out as a scientific impossibility?  After all, he's just "hamfisting" in unrealistic giant mushrooms.

As for lizards, they'd freeze to death underground. There's a reason they climb on those sunny rocks you know.

Not all cold blooded creatures live in the tropics.  There are, after all, many cold-blooded cave dwellers in real life, with as little food in the ecosystem as there is.  On top of that, the overwhelming majority of sea life, even in the arctic or deep abysses, are cold-blooded. 

Cold-blooded creatures may sun and warm themselves to up their metabolisms and make digestion faster, but cold-blooded creatures can adapt to a slower, more ponderous life... especially since cold blood keeps them far more energy-efficient, and allows for longer lifespans and greater sizes.

I'm not that averse to replacing cats overall though, some cave critters are capable of sort of filling that slot. They just might be considered unsavory, such as cat-sized spiders. Not sure they'd want to keep those over cats.

What? Don't you know that cat-sized exoskeletal creatures with lymph-based respiratory systems are impossible?! 

Foehamster covered the crops pretty nicely. Besides, renaming them is real easy. Not too many of them in the game. Wonder what I should call the strawberries..

Actually, "not too many of them" is something I rather dislike, as well, but is mostly a symptom of having such a stripped-down farming system.  Hopefully, a more robust farming system will give the sort of diversity in farming that would allow for different kinds of crops to take advantage of different types of soils.

But hey, want another name for strawberries?  Call them Tartvine Fruits.  Strawberries are always being jammed into tarts...

[Pilsu]

That "little wilderness" in the bear would make it wholly uncooperative in packs and generally make them unreliable. Not to mention they'd sleep a good chunk of the year. Unless you're insisting on us ignoring that too.

They might suffice as mounts but they'd be a lot slower than other equivalents and probably lack stamina. On the plus side, they wouldn't be as easily scared as horses are and might fare better in battle. They wouldn't make for efficient dog replacements either way.

Wild birds don't lay unfertilized eggs that are easily edible.  Chickens, which frequenly lay eggs, even when they are unfertilized are a bit of an anomoly, and are that way because of a great many generations of domesticating chickens specifically for the purpose of laying eggs.

What the bleep does it matter what chickens do? This is as much about breeding as it is making good eatin'. I'm pretty sure you'd want to find a giant eagle nest someday too. Guaranteed recipe for Fun™.

So what?  They're giant ridable creatures that can dig and have sharp claws.  And...

And a diet consisting of bugs and no natural bravery whatsoever. Probably slow too. They just can't replace dogs if you want any semblance of sense.

This is a FANTASY WORLD.  Were you screaming at Dune for having worms whose skin would not be able to handle acts like respiration because of their sheer size?  I use these creatures because they are creatures adapted in general terms for a life of burrowing that could fairly easily be concieved of being tamed.  Sure, I could go with "burrowing horses", but a horse isn't in the shape of a burrowing creature, now is it?

I just told you that they can't be "easily conceived" to be tameable. They're as stupid as the soil they burrow in. Their physical shape isn't suited for any of the tasks you'd have planned for them. They just don't make any sense and the only reason you hamfisted them in is because you have no actual good underground alternatives and you damn well know it.

As is, there is little life underground.  Are you going to go tell Toady his attempts to make underground mushroom-tree forests must be taken out as a scientific impossibility?  After all, he's just "hamfisting" in unrealistic giant mushrooms.

It's not a game based on 100% realism but it still has to make sense. Mushroom forests underground are self-consistent with the rest of the underground flora. It has been established that the setting supports underground vegetation and it's well within the willing suspension of disbelief due to it's self-consistency. Now, when you start putting in existing real world creatures and completely ignoring their shape and temperament just to be able to replace animals we hand picked in real life to fulfill specific purposes, that's hamfisting. It does not click into place. Being so desperate for livestock variety that you'd make worms pull wagons does nothing to add flavor. It just makes the game make less sense and hurts the fantasy world.

Not all cold blooded creatures live in the tropics.  There are, after all, many cold-blooded cave dwellers in real life, with as little food in the ecosystem as there is.  On top of that, the overwhelming majority of sea life, even in the arctic or deep abysses, are cold-blooded. 

Cold-blooded creatures may sun and warm themselves to up their metabolisms and make digestion faster, but cold-blooded creatures can adapt to a slower, more ponderous life... especially since cold blood keeps them far more energy-efficient, and allows for longer lifespans and greater sizes.

So even if they don't outright die, they'd be sluggish. Well, it's not all bad but the current alternative is still better. Most certainly dwarfier than a toad or a lizard.

Should cats kill bugs to begin with though? Thorough pest control might involve multiple species, lizards and bats killing that which cats have little interest in. Such species probably shouldn't roam everywhere like cats do right now though, it'd just look odd. Not sure cats would play nice with the lizards, at least the bats can stay out of the way.

[beekay]

I'm not so concerned with giving dwarves 'character' by making up a bunch of cave livestock; it's not necessary, although it might be interesting to explore at some point. What IS a bit silly is that dwarves have animals which are utterly unsuited for dwarven living. How the fuck does a cow or a horse live in a cave? Solid rock, no vegetation, no food? At least cats and dogs have the vermin.

I'd definitely support animals like pigs and goats, and I think it's not unbelievable that dwarves would have stolen domesticated dogs off the humans. Smaller, omnivorous, resilient animals won't break your suspension of disbelief, but a camel or an elephant? Hmm.

[Pilsu]

While dwarves dig their fortresses underground, I doubt their livestock spend their entire lives there. Grazing is done outside in the ample grasslands left over from the lack of farming activity. Very little could survive off the flora found underground as is, I see no reason why pigs or goats would. Vermin are a bit too ubiquitous as is, venturing outside or feeding would likely be necessary to keep even small animal populations nourished should the system ever become more realistic.

As is, cave adaption is tied to light. It would suggest that dwarves have adapted to live in the dark, venturing outside at night. Mining activity can't feasibly be an innate trait. Fondness of it has to be something that arose from their adaption to darkness. I think it's false to suggest that dwarves huddle their entire lives under some stone just because they have a tendency to dig their hovels instead of building them.

[NW_Kohaku]

To Pilsu:

You know, there isn't much point in trying to convince you of suggestions if you are unwilling to even try concieving that creatures can have similar outward appearances to existant creatures without being exactly the same thing as an already existant creature.

I can't help but notice you skipped out on replying to the points about the already-existing creatures like giant cave spiders that you seem to have no problem with, and even mentioned giant eagles... which are similarly impossible.

Why do my suggested creatures have to have absolutely no room for adapting, while the already existing abusrd creatures are given a free pass, exactly?

It's an absurd double standard that anything I suggest is rediculous or stupid or hamfisted when it would fit perfectly in with an underground flora of giant mushroom forests?  Real fungi only grow mushrooms as a breeding mechanism.  Making giant trees out of mushrooms serve no purpose whatsoever.  Obviously, they must have completely unexplained physiologies to account for this.  Why can't a creature LOOK like a worm, but have brains like a mammal?  Why is it only my suggestions have to pass this kind of rigid double-standard?

[Grendus]

From the devlog:

The elves still have a great advantage in the use of beasts, but there can be a bit of variety now. As in fortress mode, the historical dwarves can now take advantage of certain underground beasts (not that you fight dwarves yet), and the goblins should have a greater variety available as well.

I have a feeling that at some point Toady is going to add more underground beasts for dwarves. In the meantime, there are viable underground animals for dwarves to use in some situations.

Wombats, for example, are burrowing animals that can be tamed (though they're not as good as dogs - might be solveable through selective breeding). They're herbivorous and large at 77 lbs, with slow metabolisms. With a little suspension of disbelief, wombats could make a decent livestock animal for dwarves.

Giant moles could fill the same role as cats. Moles are carnivorous, they gather earthworms and store them, still living, by paralyzing them with a mild toxin in their saliva. Giant moles could prey on larger creatures like mice, cave spiders, rats, etc. They're fairly blind, but if you gave them something like cave adaptation so they didn't go outside that would actually be a bonus (no more tantrumming cat lovers after their cats 'greeted' the goblin siege). They're also fast, capable of catching and eating prey in under 300 milliseconds. If you factor in that they're better adapted for underground than their prey, who have followed the food into an unnatural situation, it's not hard to fathom a breed of giant moles being used for pest control.

If you don't like giant moles, Meerkats are also known to pray on spiders, lizards, grubs, etc. They wouldn't need to be oversized to work, although by this point we're really reaching around the globe for burrowing animals.

Giant Prairie Dogs (a lot of burrowing animals would have to be oversized to work, but otherwise they're good) could fill in for dogs. Although they're herbivorous, they're social animals and fairly aggressive against smaller predators like badgers (or kobolds). War Giant Prairie Dogs might be a stretch, but they would make good watch animals and, being herbivorous, would be a decent source of food as well.

If you don't like Giant Prairie Dogs, Badgers are also known to burrow and can be very aggressive, fighting off dogs and wolves. They're somewhat social, they roam in family packs, and large with big claws. They're omnivorous, and can run at 15 mph. They're also a food staple in Russia, meaning they can fill a dog's meat role as well.

Unfortunately, most of the animals that like to dig are small, since large tunnels have problems with cave ins (something the dwarves completely ignore). They also tend to be prey animals, since digging provides good protection from larger predators who can't follow you into your burrows. However, there are some that could easily fill many of the requirements that are at least partially underground species.