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Author Topic: More Dwarfy Livestock  (Read 9589 times)

Atanamis

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2010, 12:04:25 pm »

Are there any good mythical creatures that would fit this role well? I'm not too fond of completely made up animals since it could get confusing quickly for newbies, but things like giant moles and such would be preferable to what we have now. I would like to see surface dwelling creatures have problems if kept underground perpetually. Dwarfs can have cattle, but they should need to have an above ground pen for them like we do with above ground crops. By default, it would be good to have underground livestock though that make sense.
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Atanamis

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2010, 12:07:50 pm »

Note that some form of this is planned:
# Bloat58, MORE LIVESTOCK, (Future): Livestock. Use of feathers. Use of wool. Various eggs and nests. Dwarves should hate eating plants all the time.
# Bloat234, APPROPRIATE ANIMALS FOR CIVS, (Future): Dwarves shouldn't use full-sized horses to pull their wagons, for example.
# Bloat247, HERBIVORES AND LIVESTOCK AND SO ON, (Future): Herbivores should be able to eat grass outside, people can bring livestock, not as pets, sheep/goats -- sheep lead to wool on butcher? or can you process them without butcher at the farm shop, like milking?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2010, 12:10:48 pm »

Actually, I was just thinking that selectively bred giant moles (and maybe also a slower-moving, livestock breed of pigs) might actually make a decent milkable animal.  (Shouldn't be hard when you consider their rivals for milkable animals underground include giant maggots.)  Anyway, I wasn't arguing for giant moles to be "underground dogs" in the first place.

If we really want to talk about a replacement for dogs in a burrowing animal, there are burrowing mamalian hunting animals - the weasel family - badgers, wolverines, mongoose, mink, ferret, etc.  Selectively bred large, aggressive weasels, badgers, or wolverines require no stretch of the imagination to be dangerous animals.  Before Pilsu comes in with "they aren't tamable", dogs weren't tamable without thousands of years of breeding, either.  Dwarves are fantastic creatures in a fantastic environment, and to demand that they follow "real-life" models of animals is actually far, far less "realistic" than what we are suggesting.  Domestic dogs and cows are all man-made species (no cow would survive in the wild) designed for living in human, and it is unrealistic to expect cultures grown in other environments would not do similar things with animals from their own environment.

I also think a giant cold-blooded animal would make for a decent pack animal.  Something like a giant lizard or a gecko could be size 11 or something, and have a trade capacity along the underground roads (and it would be nice if we could eventually have working deeproads we can carve out for protected dwarven caravans), with perhaps a [speed:1100] as a concession to a slower metabolism.

Realistically, though, while cows and horses are probably not going to make the cut, cats (also consumate survivors and scavengers) are probably adaptable enough to survive underground.  The whole Felis Domesticus species is descended from desert cats, yet cats abandoned on Antarctica have actually survived and a colony of cats flourishes down there, in spite of the monsterous cold, and the almost total lack of food on land down there.  If there's vermin to eat, cats will survive in a cave.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2010, 12:23:37 pm »

Are there any good mythical creatures that would fit this role well? I'm not too fond of completely made up animals since it could get confusing quickly for newbies, but things like giant moles and such would be preferable to what we have now. I would like to see surface dwelling creatures have problems if kept underground perpetually. Dwarfs can have cattle, but they should need to have an above ground pen for them like we do with above ground crops. By default, it would be good to have underground livestock though that make sense.

We already have fluffy wamblers and purring maggots... how confusing were those for you? 

I don't know about anyone else, but fluffy wamblers made me look between vermin pages before I figured that they had basically the same stats as a rat and a demon rat, but with a [good] tag, so I figured they were just a cutesy version of a rat.

Things like "giant hauling lizard" shouldn't be too hard to figure out, especially since animals will start getting descriptions in the next version that can tell players who look "this is a lizard that dwarves use as pack animals".

Note that some form of this is planned:
# Bloat58, MORE LIVESTOCK, (Future): Livestock. Use of feathers. Use of wool. Various eggs and nests. Dwarves should hate eating plants all the time.
# Bloat234, APPROPRIATE ANIMALS FOR CIVS, (Future): Dwarves shouldn't use full-sized horses to pull their wagons, for example.
# Bloat247, HERBIVORES AND LIVESTOCK AND SO ON, (Future): Herbivores should be able to eat grass outside, people can bring livestock, not as pets, sheep/goats -- sheep lead to wool on butcher? or can you process them without butcher at the farm shop, like milking?

Well, why not hash out arguments for or against certain animals if Toady is consdiering them, anyway?  While he doesn't want help in coding, he has to at least care what we think about these sorts of things, or he wouldn't have made a suggestions forum at all, right?
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Atanamis

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2010, 12:36:49 pm »

It was extremely confusing! I still can't say that I can picture a "fluffy wamber" in my head. I greatly prefer the kind of ideas you are suggesting. I was more concerned with the idea of entirely made up animal types. Anything that is "giant X" should be easy enough to visualize. We still need to communicate the altered role they have, but I don't think that's something we can legitimately avoid.

I think your animal ideas make a lot of sense, especially the weasel family members. Having a pet ferret, I would definitely say they can be tamed. I definitely agree that we should play around with animal ideas for livestock. I was just making the point to others that what you are suggesting is actually in compliance with Toady's own ideas, since some seem to think it is unusual that a race that lives underground in a world teaming with underground life would have their own kinds of livestock!
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Pilsu

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2010, 03:44:48 pm »

Why can't a creature LOOK like a worm, but have brains like a mammal?

Because it has absolutely nothing to use the intellect on. It doesn't even have limbs. Making it smart wouldn't benefit it as an organism in any way.

Even if it was smart enough to do math, it still can't reasonably pull that cart. Give it a rest. Oh and it'd burrow in soil, not rock. There's nothing to be found in rock even if we pretend it would. Logically, it'd either end up being a surface animal or not burrow in anything at all.

As for the other bit, sure, we can ignore temperature when putting in these lizards of yours but is it worth it? Giant spiders were put in because hey, spiders. Putting in lizards does not fit the same flavor-based rationale as it'd be done only to come up with a flimsy replacement for an existing slot because of an insistence that dwarves hate all that dwells on the surface. Whether it replaces the animal adequately, whether it's fitting for the civ, whether it's flavorful and whether it actually fits canon are all important questions. If you want to counter my query on the viability of a cold-blooded chasing predator underground with the existence of other ridiculous fauna, fine. But don't paint me as a frothing at the mouth moron for bringing it up.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing for giant moles to be "underground dogs" in the first place.

Why'd you bring up their claws then? My bad anyway

If we really want to talk about a replacement for dogs in a burrowing animal, there are burrowing mamalian hunting animals - the weasel family - badgers, wolverines, mongoose, mink, ferret, etc.  Selectively bred large, aggressive weasels, badgers, or wolverines require no stretch of the imagination to be dangerous animals.

Badger is a surface animal, it just nests in a hole. Not sure what the overall point is in insisting on things that burrow into soil, even if they otherwise share the same habitat with everything else.

Otherwise, pretty good. Badgers fall short but wolverines are worth consideration. They're about the right size, dwarfy, fast, strong, tough and intelligent. While solitary, domestication might be able to expand on their existing childhood social behavior to make them tolerate each other. Of course, for flavor, males could be made to hate each other when grown up, necessitating discarding or chaining any extra males that are born. Selective breeding would likely skew the sex ratio, cutting down on losses.

Before Pilsu comes in with "they aren't tamable", dogs weren't tamable without thousands of years of breeding, either.  Dwarves are fantastic creatures in a fantastic environment, and to demand that they follow "real-life" models of animals is actually far, far less "realistic" than what we are suggesting.  Domestic dogs and cows are all man-made species (no cow would survive in the wild) designed for living in human, and it is unrealistic to expect cultures grown in other environments would not do similar things with animals from their own environment.

Well, seeing it's a game where you can tame god damn cockroaches, I'm just going to assume you're trying to pick a fight by this point. Calm down, me shooting down your suggestion is not a personal attack.

Cows haven't changed that much really.

I also think a giant cold-blooded animal would make for a decent pack animal.  Something like a giant lizard or a gecko could be size 11 or something, and have a trade capacity along the underground roads (and it would be nice if we could eventually have working deeproads we can carve out for protected dwarven caravans), with perhaps a [speed:1100] as a concession to a slower metabolism.

Not very dwarfy. If nothing better comes up, I'd prefer if they just used muskoxen and lanterns.


since some seem to think it is unusual that a race that lives underground in a world teaming with underground life would have their own kinds of livestock!

Dwarves dig their fortresses underground. That is not something they could have done since the dawn of time seeing as they use picks to chisel their way into rock. Scarce caves have vegetation of any kind, none of them teem with anything but animals using them as shelter. This lost world you speak of does not exist. A few scattered caves with some forests in them would not change their entire culture. Everything we see so far suggests that dwarves do not limit themselves to one world. It would pose unnecessary hurdles to overcome and waste all the grazing lands at their disposal. Dwarves spending their lengthy existence entirely under some rock is a myth conceived by the playerbase with little to support it at this point.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2010, 04:54:35 pm »

Because it has absolutely nothing to use the intellect on. It doesn't even have limbs. Making it smart wouldn't benefit it as an organism in any way.

Even if it was smart enough to do math, it still can't reasonably pull that cart. Give it a rest. Oh and it'd burrow in soil, not rock. There's nothing to be found in rock even if we pretend it would. Logically, it'd either end up being a surface animal or not burrow in anything at all.

As for the other bit, sure, we can ignore temperature when putting in these lizards of yours but is it worth it? Giant spiders were put in because hey, spiders. Putting in lizards does not fit the same flavor-based rationale as it'd be done only to come up with a flimsy replacement for an existing slot because of an insistence that dwarves hate all that dwells on the surface. Whether it replaces the animal adequately, whether it's fitting for the civ, whether it's flavorful and whether it actually fits canon are all important questions. If you want to counter my query on the viability of a cold-blooded chasing predator underground with the existence of other ridiculous fauna, fine. But don't paint me as a frothing at the mouth moron for bringing it up.
Quote
Otherwise, pretty good. Badgers fall short but wolverines are worth consideration. They're about the right size, dwarfy, fast, strong, tough and intelligent. While solitary, domestication might be able to expand on their existing childhood social behavior to make them tolerate each other. Of course, for flavor, males could be made to hate each other when grown up, necessitating discarding or chaining any extra males that are born. Selective breeding would likely skew the sex ratio, cutting down on losses.
Quote
Well, seeing it's a game where you can tame god damn cockroaches, I'm just going to assume you're trying to pick a fight by this point. Calm down, me shooting down your suggestion is not a personal attack.

I'm sorry, this language seems pretty damn agressive to me, and saying that "giant spiders are fine because, hey spiders" is a reason for a double standard, while then giving off this language to grade me by how strictly realistic my suggestions are for a fantasy world does absolutely nothing to clarify why, exactly, this double standard exists.

So again, I'm going to have to ask if you are arguing in good faith, here?  All I'm seeing is an argument against this being a fantasy game at all.

edit: deleted a chunk of quote from the last Pilsu post that I left in (in poor formatting) by mistake
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 07:46:20 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Joakim

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2010, 05:39:51 pm »

I can see dwarves using dogs specially bred for underground lives. Kinda like extreme bloodhounds with crappy visiona and a superb dog sense of smell, even for a dog. Also cave horses which would be like real life mining horses.

They could also tame whatever animals are available in the chasms. Wall in the naked mole dogs and throw refuse at them, kinda like pigs. Same with the large rats. And whatever weird creatures will inhabit the mushroom forests. Like Cave Slugs whose slime can be carefully scraped off and brewed into Dwarven Jello Shots.

Btw, the egg laying can work like cave spider silk does now. In the old days the children ran around trying to find the eggs, didn't they?
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Atanamis

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2010, 06:44:06 pm »

You're hilarious. Are you seriously of the opinion that DF is exactly like the real work, except with short people? You've never encountered any exotic creatures that don't exist in our world? Does it bother you that skeletal creatures lack a brain?

Badger is a surface animal, it just nests in a hole. Not sure what the overall point is in insisting on things that burrow into soil, even if they otherwise share the same habitat with everything else.
The idea is that things that dig might well shift into an underground tunnel system if one existed, as it does in DF. Otherwise, it's good to see that you are willing to consider wolverines as a possibility. Not sure why you want to throw arbitrary difficulties like males hating one another into the mix?

Well, seeing it's a game where you can tame god damn cockroaches, I'm just going to assume you're trying to pick a fight by this point.
Your comments to this point have been pretty ridiculous. You seem to have a hard time recognizing that the world of DF is significantly different than our own.

Not very dwarfy. If nothing better comes up, I'd prefer if they just used muskoxen and lanterns.
How are muskoxen any more "dwarfy" than a lizard? Their "dwarfiness" is a massively subjective judgment, and only Toady can make an authoritative statement on what is and isn't "dwarfy".

Dwarves dig their fortresses underground. That is not something they could have done since the dawn of time seeing as they use picks to chisel their way into rock. Scarce caves have vegetation of any kind, none of them teem with anything but animals using them as shelter. This lost world you speak of does not exist. A few scattered caves with some forests in them would not change their entire culture. Everything we see so far suggests that dwarves do not limit themselves to one world. It would pose unnecessary hurdles to overcome and waste all the grazing lands at their disposal. Dwarves spending their lengthy existence entirely under some rock is a myth conceived by the playerbase with little to support it at this point.
I can only assume you haven't read any of the dev notes, but in the new version there are extensive caves and underground passages teeming with live. There will invasions of "animal men", native creatures, and much more. The only technology needed for dwarves to create fortresses is a pickax, something they have likely had for thousands of years. This is plenty of time to domesticate entirely independent animals. There is no "lost world" because it was never lost. That Dwarves do anything BUT spend their lengthy existence underground is a fabrication which only you believe. This is the core definition of "dwarfiness", and is demonstrated by the "cave adaptation" of dwarves which results in their becoming physically ill when exposed to the outdoors. At best, some dwarves "tolerate" spending short periods outdoors. The evidence opposing your myth that dwarves have in recent times lived primarily above ground is entirely without a shred of evidence.
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Jimmy

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2010, 06:46:17 pm »

Actually, Fluffy Wamblers aren't rats. They're an exotic creature made entirely of fluff and pudge.

Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:WAMBLER_FLUFFY]
    [DESCRIPTION:A fluffy, pudge-filled being, known for its warm heart
and stumble bumblings.]
    [NAME:fluffy wambler:fluffy wamblers:fluffy wambler]
    [CASTE_NAME:fluffy wambler:fluffy wamblers:fluffy wambler]
    [CREATURE_TILE:249][COLOR:7:0:1]
    [PETVALUE:20]
    [VERMIN_EATER][PENETRATEPOWER:1][FREQUENCY:100][VERMIN_GROUNDER]
    [SMALL_REMAINS][GOOD][PET_EXOTIC][NATURAL]
    [NOT_BUTCHERABLE]
    [BIOME:ANY_LAND]
    [POPULATION_NUMBER:250:500]
    [TRIGGERABLE_GROUP:5:50]
    [PREFSTRING:warm heart]
    [PREFSTRING:gentle nature]
    [PREFSTRING:stumble bumbling]
    [BODY:HUMANOID_SIMPLE:2EYES:NOSE]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:FLUFF:HAIR_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:fluff]
        [STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:fluff]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:FLUFF:HAIR_TEMPLATE]
        [TISSUE_NAME:fluff:NP]
        [RELATIVE_THICKNESS:3]
        [INSULATION:200]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SKIN:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SKIN:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUDGE:FAT_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:pudge]
        [STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:pudge]
        [STATE_COLOR:ALL:PURPLE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:PUDGE:FAT_TEMPLATE]
        [TISSUE_NAME:pudge:NP]
        [MUSCULAR]
        [FUNCTIONAL]
        [STRUCTURAL]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:EYE:EYE_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:EYE:EYE_TEMPLATE]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:EXOSKELETON_TISSUE_LAYERS:SKIN:PUDGE:NONE]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BODY_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS:FLUFF]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]
    [SPEED:2900]
    [BODY_SIZE:0:0:2000]
    [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
    [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
    [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:DEEP_SET:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
    [DIURNAL]
    [HOMEOTHERM:10070]
    [CASTE:FEMALE]
        [FEMALE]
    [CASTE:MALE]
        [MALE]
    [SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:FLUFF]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:WHITE:1]
        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SKIN]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:PINK:1]
        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:EYE]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BLACK:1]
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LegoLord

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2010, 06:59:41 pm »

Why can't a creature LOOK like a worm, but have brains like a mammal?
Even if it was smart enough to do math,
This is why people think your argument is ridiculous.  He's not asking for a smart brain (which non-mammals can have, by the way), just one good enough that it can be tamed.  But there you go, acting like he was asking for Professor Wormy McCalculus.   You fit other people's arguments so they counter your views, rather than actually evaluating the entirety of their argument.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2010, 07:22:30 pm »

Actually, Fluffy Wamblers aren't rats. They're an exotic creature made entirely of fluff and pudge.

Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:WAMBLER_FLUFFY]
    [DESCRIPTION:A fluffy, pudge-filled being, known for its warm heart
and stumble bumblings.]
    [NAME:fluffy wambler:fluffy wamblers:fluffy wambler]
    [CASTE_NAME:fluffy wambler:fluffy wamblers:fluffy wambler]
    [CREATURE_TILE:249][COLOR:7:0:1]
    [PETVALUE:20]
    [VERMIN_EATER][PENETRATEPOWER:1][FREQUENCY:100][VERMIN_GROUNDER]
    [SMALL_REMAINS][GOOD][PET_EXOTIC][NATURAL]
    [NOT_BUTCHERABLE]
    [BIOME:ANY_LAND]
    [POPULATION_NUMBER:250:500]
    [TRIGGERABLE_GROUP:5:50]
    [PREFSTRING:warm heart]
    [PREFSTRING:gentle nature]
    [PREFSTRING:stumble bumbling]
    [BODY:HUMANOID_SIMPLE:2EYES:NOSE]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:FLUFF:HAIR_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:fluff]
        [STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:fluff]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:FLUFF:HAIR_TEMPLATE]
        [TISSUE_NAME:fluff:NP]
        [RELATIVE_THICKNESS:3]
        [INSULATION:200]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SKIN:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SKIN:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUDGE:FAT_TEMPLATE]
        [STATE_NAME:ALL_SOLID:pudge]
        [STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:pudge]
        [STATE_COLOR:ALL:PURPLE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:PUDGE:FAT_TEMPLATE]
        [TISSUE_NAME:pudge:NP]
        [MUSCULAR]
        [FUNCTIONAL]
        [STRUCTURAL]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:EYE:EYE_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:EYE:EYE_TEMPLATE]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:EXOSKELETON_TISSUE_LAYERS:SKIN:PUDGE:NONE]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BODY_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS:FLUFF]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]
    [SPEED:2900]
    [BODY_SIZE:0:0:2000]
    [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
    [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
    [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:DEEP_SET:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
    [DIURNAL]
    [HOMEOTHERM:10070]
    [CASTE:FEMALE]
        [FEMALE]
    [CASTE:MALE]
        [MALE]
    [SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:FLUFF]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:WHITE:1]
        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SKIN]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:PINK:1]
        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:EYE]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BLACK:1]

Yes, actually, I saw that, and was very dissapointed by it.  I kind of liked the idea that it was some sort of critter like a little mascot animal like Snarf from the Thundercats or something.  Well, maybe it still is, and Toady just didn't bother to put in other organs?

God, I hope it's not just a Yukkuri.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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LegoLord

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2010, 07:24:20 pm »

It's a vermin.  Vermin don't have defined bodies.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Jimmy

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2010, 11:24:42 pm »

They do in the new version, which is where that raw is from. Didn't you read Toady's devlog post about yummy yummy dragonfly brains?
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Nikov

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Re: More Dwarfy Livestock
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2010, 01:15:55 am »

Clearly, the fluffy wambler is a snuggly little puffball, precisely as Toady intended it to be, and for us to be disappointed somehow by his implementation of his own creative work is a little condescending, eh?

I say dwarven livestock should be focused on mountainous creatures one might expect to find in a vale between peaks. Sheep are an obvious choice and provide both wool and mutton. Goats are also common in such areas and provide milk for cheese. Muskoxen I never liked much, although oxen I rather do. Reindeer are also a cold weather option. Cave-dwelling livestock requires us to push the fantasy envelope quite a bit farther than the previous versions did, but it is far from the degree required for domesticated wolverines or giant cave lizards. We have, for example, snail men. What about giant snails producing shells and meat? Or tameable giant rats? I imagine most caverns will have quite a few giant rats to hunt anyway, and its easy to see them being both wild and tame as horses currently are. And what about giant olms, frogs or salamanders? It would be interesting to see amphibious livestock and the hilarity which would ensue.
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I should probably have my head checked, because I find myself in complete agreement with Nikov.
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