Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Foamy]

I've genned like 5 worlds now and none have any metal more advanced than bronze. It's a problem because with the new system bronze weapons are totally useless against anything tougher than basic leather.

Anyone have any ideas?

[armadilloHD]

I love the truth in television.
http://www.cracked.com/article_16972_the-5-most-terrifying-civilizations-in-history-world.html
"The Assyrians were the first people to start using iron weapons instead of bronze which, to put into a modern perspective, is sort of like showing up for a knife fight with the Death Star. Using iron made the Assyrians so near-invincible that, really, the other guys might as well have been swinging around bananas."

[Tirin]

Wasn't Iron a big step forward not because of higher strength but because it was much more plentiful and easier to find? (so you can arm everyone with the stuff rather than just important warriors)

Modern iron may be strong enough but the process back then produced a weaker metal.


Edit: Wiki'd!

Wrought iron is weaker than bronze, but because it was less expensive, and more easily sharpened, people used it anyway. Iron is by itself an adequately strong metal without additional alloys (although it could be further strengthened by case-hardening or forge welding small amounts of steel to areas subject to wear such as edges). Bronze, on the other hand, requires copper and tin, which are less common than iron. Additionally, iron can be sharpened by grinding whereas bronze must be reforged

[Foamy]

Is it possible to get civilizations with better metals? I keep trying but I'm having no luck.

[Akigagak]

No, I think it's the new standard. Maybe if you modded a creature to only ever use steel you might get somewhere.

Wasn't Iron a big step forward not because of higher strength but because it was much more plentiful and easier to find? (so you can arm everyone with the stuff rather than just important warriors)

Modern iron may be strong enough but the process back then left a bunch of impurities and stuff.

It was a case of: really high-end bronze = pretty crap iron.

[Foamy]

No, I think it's the new standard.

Doesn't this totally screw up fortress mode balance? Is there anything i can change in the gen parameters or even a file i can modify to give them more advanced metals?

[Aquillion]

They have more advanced metals.  At least, they usually should.

They're not using bronze because they don't have iron, they're using bronze because bronze is better than DF-era iron, and, at the moment, the game isn't paying attention to the fact that it's harder to make by virtue of requiring somewhat less common minerals.

What we consider 'strong' iron is closer to (and is represented in the game by) steel.

[Tirin]

Unless things have changed I believe DF iron is stronger than bronze though, whether it should be or not(Bronze=75% effectiveness of iron).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The three great myth's of history...

1. Iron is awesome.
It's great, sure. But more importantly it's easy to find and use. Pure iron is fairly soft. Alloys make iron much better, but the better alloys often requires more advanced technology.

2. Yeoman ended the age of knights because longbows are super-powerful.
More because a Yeoman is a civilian who's trained on his own time, with a bow he's liable to have made himself, while a knight and his warhorse both represent several years of training and a great deal of expense.

3. Gunpowder changed everything.
Eventually, sure. The point and shoot ease of use of a crossbow combined with the accuracy of a longbow. But early firearms were lousy, gunpowder was used more effectively in cannons

[Foamy]

Well something is very wrong with the combat. If you go as a swordsman and try to find anyone with bronze armour you will be sat there for hours just bruising each other once in a while in between dozens of deflections.

I've only had one fight like that end without me getting bored and that was when a swordsman got in a lucky hit on my throat. Hammers are quite effective but bladed weapons and all projectiles are useless.

[!!Zombie Carp!!]

What is this talk of Dwarves not producing high quality iron!?

Dwarves are all but made of metals and stone, it seems ridiculous to me that bronze could ever surpass Dwarf-forged iron.

Perhaps this is the point of it; only the Dwarves are actually capable of producing quality iron.

[Tirin]

Wrestle their armour off. It can't deflect if it isn't there!

What is this talk of Dwarves not producing high quality iron!?

Dwarves are all but made of metals and stone, it seems ridiculous to me that bronze could ever surpass Dwarf-forged iron.

Well, shouldn't their skill in metallurgy improve their bronze just as much though?

[Foamy]

The best bronze will never be as good as the best iron. Doesn't the quality of the item take into account the quality of the metal? Not that it really matters because i'd still want a choice. like before we had bronze and iron weapons while now we just have bronze everything

[!!Zombie Carp!!]

Well, shouldn't their skill in metallurgy improve their bronze just as much though?

Bronze is already an alloy, you can't really improve it much. Iron is a base metal, so it can easily be improved by getting rid of the impurities from the ore (which takes skill).

Iron is extracted from ore by removing oxygen and combining the ore with a preferred chemical partner such as carbon. This process, known as smelting, was first applied to metals with lower melting points, such as tin, which melts at approximately 250 °C (482 °F) and copper, which melts at approximately 1,000 °C (1,830 °F). In comparison, cast iron melts at approximately 1,370 °C (2,500 °F). All of these temperatures could be reached with ancient methods that have been used since the Bronze Age. Since the oxidation rate itself increases rapidly beyond 800 °C, it is important that smelting take place in a low-oxygen environment. Unlike copper and tin, liquid iron dissolves carbon quite readily.

Edit: Url tag borkedness.

[Aquillion]

What is this talk of Dwarves not producing high quality iron!?

They do.  It's called steel.

The best bronze will never be as good as the best iron.

The "best iron" is steel (or something approaching steel.)

Unless things have changed I believe DF iron is stronger than bronze though, whether it should be or not(Bronze=75% effectiveness of iron).

The metal system was totally overhauled.  Look in the raws.  The differences are complicated, but overall bronze is better than iron, now; but weaker than steel.  This is realistic or, at least, more realistic than it was before.

[Foamy]

The best iron doesn't have to be steel. also where is the evidence that bronze is better than iron? i've as far as i was aware basic iron holds an edge far longer than equivalent bronze. maybe even the best bronze.