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Author Topic: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him  (Read 58998 times)

SIGVARDR

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2010, 12:36:41 am »

oh,agreed,i was posting my thoughts on the combat system in general.Which seems to make everyone into zombies that don't require anything but a brain and a blood flow to live.Which,for short term combat,during sieges,is great.you really don't need those intestines or that kidney to live the next 10 minutes or so.but a day or two later,well,you should probably patch that huge hole in your chest.
 The magma situation is pretty hilarious.i can't help thinking of my dwarves as mini terminators,slowly melting casually in the magma.(well,even then,they should melt in less than a minute or so.) meh, a wizard did it.

Edit:and if we want to be realistic here,even standing close to magma should cause you to catch on fire long before touching it.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 12:38:33 am by SIGVARDR »
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Vastin

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2010, 11:42:32 pm »

Yeah, while blood loss is perhaps the most common way for a creature to actually die from injury in many cases, there are lots of other ways to die:

- Organ Failure of any number of sorts, most of which can trigger a cascade of failures resulting in death without the slightest bit of bleeding.
-- Loss of skin results in shock and lethal infection.
-- Failure of kindneys, liver, etc results in accumulation of toxins and death.
-- Failure of Heart, lungs or brain are obviously rapidly or instantly lethal.
-- Failure of various digestive system things usually results in infection and/or gradual starvation.
-- About the only organs you can lose entirely and survive are sensory organs and limbs or some minor secondary bits.

- Massive cellular damage or cellular failure - such as from overheating or freezing or certain toxins. The organs just start shutting down. Even standing near magma too long will overheat you to the point of simply passing out and dying from the heat. Usually heat stroke, but your cells can just start dying en-mass too.

- Dehydration. Results in cellular failure and organ failure as above.

- Suffocation. Results in cellular failure and organ failure as above.

- Severe drop in blood pressure from shock. Usually accompanies blood loss, but other forms of trauma can trigger this I think. Not sure. I don't know if this can happen without accompanying heart failure?

- Autonomic paralysis or failure - usually from nerve poisons or certain diseases. Generally results in death via suffocation, though there are probably other ways it could kill you such as heart failure.
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WeAreGodzilla

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 04:22:34 am »

This will cause chaos for Boatmurdered.  Now when you "Pull the Lever", you'll just end up with super athletic murderous elephants.
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 09:38:42 am »

This will cause chaos for Boatmurdered.  Now when you "Pull the Lever", you'll just end up with super athletic murderous elephants.

... on fire?
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Firehound

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2010, 12:11:00 am »

This will cause chaos for Boatmurdered.  Now when you "Pull the Lever", you'll just end up with super athletic murderous elephants.

... on fire?
Superelephantly tough, flaming elephants, that when your military is forced to engage them, causes them to catch, and kills your entire fortress via fiery doom.
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nymersic

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2010, 06:18:46 pm »

The whole system sounds like pain isn't working properly.

if,for example,a person felt absolutely no pain,you could very well slice them right up and until there brain stops functioning from lack of oxygen a.k.a bleeding to death or you destroy their brain,they would be technically very much alive.Any living creature however goes into shock,passes out and otherwise might as well be dead from the pain of such an injury until they are really dead.

however,burning should go through flesh and bone much quicker and heat the brain of a creature up/melt it far faster than it is doing currently.

In medical parlance, "shock" has absolutely nothing to do with pain, and such a painless persondwarf's body would most surely be in shock due to loss of blood.  I guess that's not really important here, though...
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Noble Digger

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2010, 04:14:12 pm »

The thing about magma is that it's not just pain, it's about your entire body being flash-fried to a ridiculous temperature. The human body isn't meant to have a core temperature even a few degrees higher than what it is; being thrown into magma should have such an effect that you effectively die from that long before you "melt".

The ambient heat kills you extremely quickly due to the reasons mentioned by this guy. But it seems like in this release there are many problems where units that fall into things are not having their position\associations updated properly and so they're under the magma but their position has not been updated and thus the magma doesn't know to burn them.
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quib·ble
1. To evade the truth or importance of an issue by raising trivial distinctions and objections.
2. To find fault or criticize for petty reasons; cavil.

Jayce

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2010, 03:21:52 pm »

In fortress mode magma no longer melts rocks it seems,also trees are now fireproof.
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Biopass

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2010, 08:25:09 pm »

Living trees have always been fireproof/magmaproof- it's just a bug. And some stones will still melt, it's just that a lot more stones are now magma-proof.
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Saber Cherry

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2010, 12:29:16 am »

It should be impossible to drown in magma, anyway, in the traditional sense - it's way too dense to sink into.  You could walk run across most kinds of lava with a good pair of steel boots and lots of padding.  Suffocation from burnt lungs is a possibility, but not drowning unless you fall in face-first.
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thousandinone

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2011, 02:36:26 pm »

It should be impossible to drown in magma, anyway, in the traditional sense - it's way too dense to sink into.  You could walk run across most kinds of lava with a good pair of steel boots and lots of padding.  Suffocation from burnt lungs is a possibility, but not drowning unless you fall in face-first.

Nit-pick + necropost resurrection...  Radiant heat from the lava would do you in even without direct contact with it unless your exposure time was minimal.  Steel is an excellent conductor of heat.  I find it doubtful that sufficient 'padding' to prevent ones feet from being quickly rendered useless would increase the volume of ones foot enough that the amount of steel needed to encase them in even a thin layer would be prohibitively heavy.  Flammable materials will catch fire several feet away from a lava flow, or indeed from several feet downwind.  A helicopter hundreds of feet above a lava flow is still subject to high temperatures from radiant heat.

Even if you could pad yourself thoroughly to protect yourself from heat, you wouldn't be breathing that air- Each breath would do irrepairable damage to your lungs.  Depending on the temperature of the lava, it would range from rapid dessication of lung tissue to flash-boiling all of the moisture in your lungs.  So a self-contained artifical breathing system would be needed, something along the lines of scuba on a cocktail of crack and crystal meth...
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G-Flex

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2011, 09:21:52 pm »

For what it's worth, one problem is that DF simply does not care very much about body heat except in terms of it totally destroying bodily tissue.

In the real world, you're completely screwed if your brain and other organs reach a high enough temperature, even if it's not high enough for the tissue to catch fire/melt (your body's internal systems don't cope well with being heated to 120 degrees all of a sudden).

In DF, however, I've literally seen people sustain burn wounds to the brain in Arena Mode. Brain matter in DF has a heat damage point of 282 degrees Fahrenheit. Think about that.

Realistically speaking, even if DF doesn't represent the massive shock/trauma associated with such a quick rise in body temperature, it should at least simulate the effects of a fever at that temperature, causing creatures to become ill at high internal temperatures and die if it gets too extreme.


Of course, fatty tissue has the opposite problem, melting and sloughing off your body at the drop of a hat. See this bug report I wrote up a while back. By DF's logic, if you have a high enough fever (or heat stroke), all your fat should just liquefy and leak out your body, since in DF it melts at 110 degrees Fahrenheit, just barely above what constitutes a very dangerous fever. I have no idea why Toady hasn't fixed this, since it has helped to contribute to bugs in the past, such as the infamous "rain bug".
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agatharchides

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2011, 12:41:25 am »

That said you can still shield yourself from it, the temperature of magma isn't much higher than the temperature of the inside of a coke-fueled blast furnace. Standing in the middle of a blast furnace will definitely kill you well before your internal organs are physically burned away though.   

EDIT: I can't get the image tags to work and I am too tired to figure it out. You can click the link if you want to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VysokePece1.jpg
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 12:47:02 am by agatharchides »
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 08:55:21 pm »

That said you can still shield yourself from it, the temperature of magma isn't much higher than the temperature of the inside of a coke-fueled blast furnace. Standing in the middle of a blast furnace will definitely kill you well before your internal organs are physically burned away though.   

EDIT: I can't get the image tags to work and I am too tired to figure it out. You can click the link if you want to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VysokePece1.jpg

That's a totally useless comparison.

Magma is much thicker than the interior of a blast furnace. The inside of the furnace is going to be mostly air. By contrast, magma is solid rock, just molten. So the magma is going to heat something up far faster than the blast furnace would.

But by your logic, people should like swimming in boiling water, because people hang out in saunas that are 100 degrees C (212 F). The difference, of course, is that low-humidity air doesn't transfer as much heat as swimming in water of the same temperature would.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 08:57:45 pm by ZeroGravitas »
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G-Flex

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Re: [0.31.01] Magma sea drowns adventurer faster than burns him
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 09:06:30 pm »

But by your logic, people should like swimming in boiling water, because people hang out in saunas that are 100 degrees C (212 F). The difference, of course, is that low-humidity air doesn't transfer as much heat as swimming in water of the same temperature would.

Since when is the air in a sauna "low-humidity"?

Also, I did some research, and sauna temperatures don't go nearly that high. However, I do see 90 degrees as a sort of upper bound.

Wait, I think I know what's going on. You're probably thinking of the dry Finnish-style saunas or something, right?
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