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Author Topic: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Removed unkillable Undead! new links.  (Read 41644 times)

KaelGotDwarves

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Combat in .31.01 is a little strange. A quick look at the raws reveals many inconsistencies in the numbers that lead to quirks such as the dominance of axes and two-handed swords while rendering ranged weapons and blunt weapons near worthless. Strange materials like gold hammers do better than iron... etc.

Since Toady is busy with bugfixing, I want to have an open discussion about the best way to ensure proper balance for gameplay.

This is the second release of tweaking I have done to combat on my own with testing in the arena.

Download this file, extract with winrar/zip and place in the Raw/objects folder.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2001

Current mirrors if DFFD is down:
http://www.mediafire.com/?tdnf2nymnga
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=106VC4TB

Please post your thoughts, as I want this to benefit as many people as possible.

Gameplay changes:
In vanilla, armor leads to endless battles where armies are collapsing from tiredness whacking at each other without any effect. Weapons have been generally buffed.
To counter axes having wildly higher numbers (ratio-wise), short swords and many other weapons swing with greater velocity or got boosts.
Blunt weapons and maces are now much more effective, especially against heavily armored foes. No more beating on something unarmored forever.
Slicing weapons should do better against unarmored foes, where removal of limbs ends battles quickly.
Bows and Crossbows no longer merely "dent skin" and are back up to deadly levels (but not one shotting) They still do poorly against armored foes but it is not impossible.
Spears no longer pinpricks. Spears got a size increase and penetrate much more.
Temporarily removing most undead creatures from game until sever-on-breaks for skeletal creatures is fixed.
Bronze Colossi faced slight nerf, more changes pending.

Future changes:
Finding a proper balance for other megabeasts and Bronze Colossi.
Further rebalancing of weapons and armors
Balance material properties for armor and weapons.
New weapons further tweaked to reflect real life counterparts.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 06:46:47 pm by KaelGotDwarves »
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Deon

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 07:18:56 pm »

The main change we need right now is to make sharper weapons to make more damage and to have better piercing ability.

Right now the smaller is the surface of the strike, the lower is damage (it should be opposite).

I'd wait for the patch of this bug before redesigning. However the idea is good, I think it will need some tweaking anyway, Toady cannot test everything, patch the game and live at the same time :). There're just 24 hours in a day.
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Lancensis

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 07:32:18 pm »

Is it still possible to increase the material size of axes and swords so they require more bars to forge?
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G-Flex

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 07:35:11 pm »

I've made a bunch of notes here which might be useful: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=52120.0


Oh, as far as moddable fixes go, I suggest altering the MAX_EDGE on a lot of the metals. Softer ones, especially.

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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 07:38:21 pm »

Is it still possible to increase the material size of axes and swords so they require more bars to forge?
Yes.

@G-flex: I started looking at the metals and prepared to tackle those. Got the weapons out of the way first.

@Deon: yeah there's a few things that we can't do anything for yet, but considering DF's alpha state we'll make do with what we got :)

Djohaal

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 08:18:09 pm »

Looks promising. I'll test it out tommorow or wednesday (crazy week).
Is there any moddable improvement to arrows not hitting at all?
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I really want that one as a "when". I want "grubs", and "virgin woman" to turn into a dragon. and monkey children to suddenly sprout wings. And I want the Dwarven Mutant Academy to only gain their powers upon reaching puberty. I also have a whole host of odd creatures that only make sense if I divide them into children and adults.

Also, tadpoles.

Deon

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 08:19:31 pm »

Make them from metal and give them bigger size. My crescent arrows for dusk elves in Genesis mod are able to hack off wolves' bodyparts when shot from a long distance.
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talrave

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 08:23:53 pm »

Testing right now.  :)
EDIT:  Pitting two humans fully armored and with iron masks alongwith helms...  Battleaxe won over sword by lodging the axe in the swordsmans MOUTH and twisting.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 08:36:03 pm by talrave »
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Djohaal

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 08:25:48 pm »

Make them from metal and give them bigger size. My crescent arrows for dusk elves in Genesis mod are able to hack off wolves' bodyparts when shot from a long distance.

This gives me an excellent idea for a mod of my own I'm cooking...
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I really want that one as a "when". I want "grubs", and "virgin woman" to turn into a dragon. and monkey children to suddenly sprout wings. And I want the Dwarven Mutant Academy to only gain their powers upon reaching puberty. I also have a whole host of odd creatures that only make sense if I divide them into children and adults.

Also, tadpoles.

Deon

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 08:26:31 pm »

Also don't forget that bigger contact surface right now means more damage.
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talrave

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 08:45:32 pm »

Test #2:  2x Fully Iron Armored Humans, with iron shields and masks.   A = Sword,  B = Morningstar.

B right off the bat looses his shieldarm in a bloody arc.  Several glances later A is bruised up a little bit, then B hits a brutal shot and cripples A's swordarm, then LODGES his morningstar in A's ear.  A bit more back and forth, and B bleeds out and dies after a shot to his upper lip.

Seems a lot more balanced than it was before.   Bravo.   I'll be doing some unarmored tests soon with blunt weaponry.

EDIT:  So to clear the battlefield I put down a high master hammerer (C) with an iron warhammer.   After several dozen glances, he shattered A's weapon arm, lodging the bone through the shoulder... and A is STILL swinging.  C lodges the hammer into A's OTHER arm... and then collapses of exhaustion.  A lops off C's nose...  Glances and bruises continue for minutes...  I got up, used the bathroom, and returned to find that C finally snapped a bone in the shoulder through an artery, killing A, FINALLY.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 08:59:18 pm by talrave »
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 09:19:20 pm »

For the sake of me knowing, how skilled were they in which skills?

talrave

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 09:23:41 pm »

Sorry I didn't clarify.  A and B were entirely unskilled,  A was competent after killing B, and C was High Master.
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talrave

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2010, 09:38:27 pm »

So with further testing, blunt still seems to be underpowered.. But I blame this ENTIRELY on the dying only by pierced brain/bleeding out  bug.

Archers are JUST as powerful as they should be, causing serious wounds but not one-hit killing.  In my test the archer was able to put a bolt into the melee opponent's stomach, making him trail vomit as he approached, finally collapsing as the second arrow hit throat.

All together, This mod is top-notch so far!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:42:07 pm by talrave »
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Acanthus117

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Re: Community Combat Balance Overhaul: Help rebalance DF! [0.31.01]
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2010, 11:07:23 pm »

This is great! Bravo!
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