Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Caz]

this thread sucks.

i propose we make it better by turning it into a shrine for the great toad and sacrifice xoen by throwing him down a 20 z-level spiked pit.

[Scarpa]

Hey, come on. DFPongo was really not the right target for that image.

[UberNube]

Bug squashing? What bug squashing? There wasn't any bug squashing in 40d! There was a lot of OpenGL optimizations, which were basically started by OTHER people, not Toady. We went for almost 2 years with buggy crap in 40d that was never fixed, and now hasn't been fixed, and has actually been made worse  in some cases.

And now Toady is having computer problems. Awesome. We're not going to get any bug fixes for months, watch.

Oh, gimme a break. "Waaah! Waaah! The dude who works tireless on my hobby for less than he would make as a manager at McDonalds isn't fixing my problems with it fast enough! I hate my life!"

Man, the nerve of some people...

QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

Seriously, you would have got a vastly better response if you had simply asked for help rather than complained so much that a BETA release is buggy. When you've paid $50 for this game like you would any other, then you can complain. Until then, kindly stop making it sound like Toady has ruined your life. Thanks.

ALSO: Epic win for that picture Huggz.

[Chicken Launcher]

complained so much that a ALPHA release is buggy.

FTFY

[Intelligent Shade of Blue]

I just want to say that Toady is my hero. DF makes most other games look like Connect 4, and it's still in Alpha. Like Steve Perry says, don't stop believin'.

[DFPongo]

Ya, silly me, I like the mayday pack, I like dwarf therapist.
I think lots of people that where struggling to grasp the last version, will be a bit overwhelmed by the new one in its current state.
 I am certainly no use as a tester. But the old version is still plenty mysterios for me so I enjoy that.

[Neonivek]

I like the graphic pack too.

Oddly enough Toady is going to be working on graphics support soon... (and by soon, I mean... over the next year or two)

I actually barely know what that means.

[Durin]

Bug squashing? What bug squashing? There wasn't any bug squashing in 40d! There was a lot of OpenGL optimizations, which were basically started by OTHER people, not Toady. We went for almost 2 years with buggy crap in 40d that was never fixed, and now hasn't been fixed, and has actually been made worse  in some cases.

And now Toady is having computer problems. Awesome. We're not going to get any bug fixes for months, watch.

Oh, gimme a break. "Waaah! Waaah! The dude who works tireless on my hobby for less than he would make as a manager at McDonalds isn't fixing my problems with it fast enough! I hate my life!"

Man, the nerve of some people...

The median wage in America is somewhere between 20k-25k a year.  Toady tops that in donations alone and I am not entirely sure he does not have another job on the side.  Despite the core of dedicated fans, the simple fact is that after nearly a decade in development the game has regressed to be largely unplayable.  I have to assume the worst of these bugs will be fixed in fairly short order, but there is a point to be taken for the serious game designer from all of this. 

Bug fixing is a good thing.

Nothing that has come out in this new version is anything that I had actually thought.  Primarily, my expectation was that the army arc would have developed so that we can move about the map with our military.  I could probably have easily taken everything bad I have seen so far if a monumental leap like that had been achieved.  As it is, it is largely a sleight change of interface and a load of new bugs. 

I haven't played in months, and as excited as I am about this game as a concept, it needs more workers and a commitment to some serious bug squashing.  I'm sorry, but perpetual "It's in alpha" is the same as saying the game simply is never going to be done.  At all.  And maybe that's the big secret.  I honestly do not get the sense there is any serious plan to ever actually make this a playable game.  It's a hobby for Toady, and if it were marketed like that it would ...

Oh who am I kidding, people would still complain.  But it would be more honest.  LOL

I can't get excited to play right now I guess is my big beef, and it is a combination of yes, losing what little graphics there were to the game, and all the new bugs, and nothing really new to play with.

[Footkerchief]

I am not entirely sure he does not have another job on the side. 

Primarily, my expectation was that the army arc would have developed so that we can move about the map with our military.

Was there anything that gave you these ideas?

[Toksyuryel]

Bug squashing? What bug squashing? There wasn't any bug squashing in 40d! There was a lot of OpenGL optimizations, which were basically started by OTHER people, not Toady. We went for almost 2 years with buggy crap in 40d that was never fixed, and now hasn't been fixed, and has actually been made worse  in some cases.

And now Toady is having computer problems. Awesome. We're not going to get any bug fixes for months, watch.

Oh, gimme a break. "Waaah! Waaah! The dude who works tireless on my hobby for less than he would make as a manager at McDonalds isn't fixing my problems with it fast enough! I hate my life!"

Man, the nerve of some people...

The median wage in America is somewhere between 20k-25k a year.  Toady tops that in donations alone and I am not entirely sure he does not have another job on the side.

20k-25k AFTER TAXES. Toady's reported donation earnings are BEFORE TAXES (and they're some big taxes too). Also, he does not have a job on the side- this is essentially his job.

[Durin]

For the most part, these are just issues with two facts:

• Nobody's created a graphics pack that's fully functional for the new version yet (at least not one that works in its entirety and as intended). This is pretty far from Toady's fault.

Actually it's by Toady's design.  He refuses to make graphics, even the most basic graphics, a part of the plan at this stage.

• The 40d# OpenGL/SDL updates haven't been merged in just yet, because there were still some lingering issues (probably) and it takes time to do. This will happen, though, so it's not something to worry about too much. Honestly, it makes sense to not merge that in yet, in a way, because it makes it easier to isolate bugs without wondering which ones were caused by the new graphics/input code and which ones are just program bugs, although this benefit may (or may not) be extremely minor.

Because even the most basic graphics are anathema to Toady, and he won't make that part of the official releases.  In fact, to a large degree he simply refuses to engage a full team of people to develop the game.  Waiting for someone to offer him cash for the rights?  Who would buy the rights when in actuality a professional team could design from scratch and improve everything he has so far in less than a year.  And all the while technology outstrips what he has.  DF does not support make any use of multi core processors, for example.  The list is endless.

Open source this sucker, organize a team, and let's see some real progress.  It's got the base it needs.  Donations would only increase, and many hobbiests are more than happy to work for free.  Coffeemud is open source but donations still roll in straight to the primary coder, for example. 

Don't let it go the way of old MUDS due to lack of willingness to expand and change with the times and circumstances.  Don't just keep testing the patience of the player base and ignoring complaints.  I'll admit, anytime you try to do anything, there will be complainers, but you can also see an arc that things like this follow.  Either they expand and take flight, or they stagnate and crumble.  You can't make a game of this scope with a one man team and expect to get done.  Too much in technology changes too fast for one single person to be able to keep up with all the necessary changes.

[Durin]

Bug squashing? What bug squashing? There wasn't any bug squashing in 40d! There was a lot of OpenGL optimizations, which were basically started by OTHER people, not Toady. We went for almost 2 years with buggy crap in 40d that was never fixed, and now hasn't been fixed, and has actually been made worse  in some cases.

And now Toady is having computer problems. Awesome. We're not going to get any bug fixes for months, watch.

Oh, gimme a break. "Waaah! Waaah! The dude who works tireless on my hobby for less than he would make as a manager at McDonalds isn't fixing my problems with it fast enough! I hate my life!"

Man, the nerve of some people...

The median wage in America is somewhere between 20k-25k a year.  Toady tops that in donations alone and I am not entirely sure he does not have another job on the side.

20k-25k AFTER TAXES. Toady's reported donation earnings are BEFORE TAXES (and they're some big taxes too). Also, he does not have a job on the side- this is essentially his job.

No, it's before taxes.  Half of Americans live below that level, and "poverty" level is a ridiculous $11,000 (approximate).  In short, I do not feel sorry for him, and I wish him well, but the "development arc" of this game is tediously slow.  It's never going to get anywhere at this rate.  It is amazing, though, to see the social dynamic that allows him to make some sort of living off of basically teaching himself to program the things he is interested in.

[Huggz]

For the most part, these are just issues with two facts:

• Nobody's created a graphics pack that's fully functional for the new version yet (at least not one that works in its entirety and as intended). This is pretty far from Toady's fault.

Actually it's by Toady's design.  He refuses to make graphics, even the most basic graphics, a part of the plan at this stage.

• The 40d# OpenGL/SDL updates haven't been merged in just yet, because there were still some lingering issues (probably) and it takes time to do. This will happen, though, so it's not something to worry about too much. Honestly, it makes sense to not merge that in yet, in a way, because it makes it easier to isolate bugs without wondering which ones were caused by the new graphics/input code and which ones are just program bugs, although this benefit may (or may not) be extremely minor.

Because even the most basic graphics are anathema to Toady, and he won't make that part of the official releases.  In fact, to a large degree he simply refuses to engage a full team of people to develop the game.  Waiting for someone to offer him cash for the rights?  Who would buy the rights when in actuality a professional team could design from scratch and improve everything he has so far in less than a year.  And all the while technology outstrips what he has.  DF does not support make any use of multi core processors, for example.  The list is endless.

Open source this sucker, organize a team, and let's see some real progress.  It's got the base it needs.  Donations would only increase, and many hobbiests are more than happy to work for free.  Coffeemud is open source but donations still roll in straight to the primary coder, for example. 

Don't let it go the way of old MUDS due to lack of willingness to expand and change with the times and circumstances.  Don't just keep testing the patience of the player base and ignoring complaints.  I'll admit, anytime you try to do anything, there will be complainers, but you can also see an arc that things like this follow.  Either they expand and take flight, or they stagnate and crumble.  You can't make a game of this scope with a one man team and expect to get done.  Too much in technology changes too fast for one single person to be able to keep up with all the necessary changes.

Much as I want to hate you, depressingly I have to say I... Kinda... Agree

[UberNube]

The median wage in America is somewhere between 20k-25k a year.  Toady tops that in donations alone and I am not entirely sure he does not have another job on the side.  Despite the core of dedicated fans, the simple fact is that after nearly a decade in development the game has regressed to be largely unplayable.  I have to assume the worst of these bugs will be fixed in fairly short order, but there is a point to be taken for the serious game designer from all of this. 

Bug fixing is a good thing.

Nothing that has come out in this new version is anything that I had actually thought.  Primarily, my expectation was that the army arc would have developed so that we can move about the map with our military.  I could probably have easily taken everything bad I have seen so far if a monumental leap like that had been achieved.  As it is, it is largely a sleight change of interface and a load of new bugs. 

I haven't played in months, and as excited as I am about this game as a concept, it needs more workers and a commitment to some serious bug squashing.  I'm sorry, but perpetual "It's in alpha" is the same as saying the game simply is never going to be done.  At all.  And maybe that's the big secret.  I honestly do not get the sense there is any serious plan to ever actually make this a playable game.  It's a hobby for Toady, and if it were marketed like that it would ...

Oh who am I kidding, people would still complain.  But it would be more honest.  LOL

I can't get excited to play right now I guess is my big beef, and it is a combination of yes, losing what little graphics there were to the game, and all the new bugs, and nothing really new to play with.

First, Toady definitely doesn't have another job. He has stated that as long as he can earn enough to live off of Dwarf Fortress, then he won't spend potential development time on another job. He could easily be earning twice his current income if he got a real job in a proper company developing mediocre games for profit, but instead he develops Dwarf Fortress and gives it away for FREE so we can have fun. If you don't call that commitment, I don't know what is.

Second, I'm pretty sure it isn't anyone else's fault than your own if you didn't spend the time to read the dev log and had unrealistic expectations for this release. Whining on here about it isn't going to do anyone any good.

Third, the game is still in beta for a very good reason. Toady is aiming to combine the best parts of almost every major fantasy game ever made into a complete procedural sandbox where the player has practically unlimited freedom. This is something no game has EVER done before. In fact, this goal is several orders of magnitude greater than that of 99% of commercial games out there. Even spore didn't come remotely close to the current state of DF in terms of sandbox capabilities. He has every intention of finishing it, but you really should be more realistic about your expectations. If he gets it finished inside 10 years I'll be amazed. If you want to play a finished game, go somewhere else. If you want to play the best god-damn game on the internet, stay here and have a little patience.

Seriously, Toady has just reworked several major aspects of the game, so you can hardly expect it to be perfect. Unfortunately, if you aren't paying for a game, you can't expect the developers to pay for hundreds of dedicated testers. We are the testers, so if you really want to see the game bug-free then I suggest you jump in and start reporting bugs. If every release of DF was fully commercially tested before release you would be adding an extra 6 months on each release cycle.

Oh, and one more thing:

DWARF FORTRESS DOES NOT LACK GRAPHICS!
GRAPHICS LACK DWARF FORTRESS!


PS:

DF is in fact in beta, not alpha. Alpha testing is done by developers and professional testers. Beta testing is done by the end user.

[nenjin]

Toady wants to retain ownership of his own game though, and I think anyone with a shred of creativity in their body can appreciate that. Appreciate that DF is just one step in a very long process that Toady intends to own from the beginning to the very end.

So I don't think open source is in DF's immediate, near or even far future. Maybe one day, when it's "done", Toady will let go.

And besides, DF works because of how it's designed. It works because it's the vision of largely one person. Turn it open source, have people start making graphics for it and I don't know if the final product would be as fun or special. At least not for me. The magic, to me, is that this is a one man show, an RPGer's fantasy come to life. Put a "team" on it, have testers and focus groups, have big arguments about what the game is and isn't.....that's where games become middling.

It's largely about leadership and what the uniqueness of what a one-man band is and can produce. Open source, community-developed games have their own flavor.