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Author Topic: Weapon research  (Read 64289 times)

zagibu

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Weapon research
« on: April 08, 2010, 08:19:07 pm »

The data below has been acquired with this simulator: http://node23.net/df_arena_simulator.zip (old version for DF without "About ..." entry on main menu: http://node23.net/df_arena_simulator_old.zip ) and this evaluator: http://node23.net/evaluator-hc.zip Just unzip the simulator package into the main dir of a new df installation, change df_arena_simulator_setup.txt to your likings, start df and run the .exe. The .au3 script is also included, in case you want to modify something (needs AutoIT scripting environment to run/compile). I recommend setting FPS to 0 in df, so that the tests will be as fast as possible. Also, don't change any key bindings, or the simulator might stop working.
Before running the evaluator script, edit it in a text editor and change the $pattern_start variable. Per default, it only counts strikes of "Dwarf 1". If you tested other creatures, or want to count strikes of another dwarf, change this pattern.
The evaluator script reads all "testreport" files and creates statistical data, which can be pasted in the included spreadsheet, for easier evaluation. The first page of the spreadheet represents the old results prior to 0.31.12, and the second page those of 0.31.12. I suggest you copy one of those and make a new page for the overview of your new test.

New data:
green = hit ratio (percentage of blows getting through armor)
yellow = light wounds
orange = medium wounds
red = heavy wounds
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver hammer100% 0% 100% 0%100% 1% 99% 0%100% 5% 95% 0%100% 1% 78% 21%93% 6% 94% 0%87% 2% 90% 7%
copper hammer100% 3% 97% 0%100% 7% 88% 5%100% 4% 96% 0%100% 7% 93% 0%97% 6% 94% 0%86% 2% 98% 0%
iron hammer100% 1% 99% 0%100% 8% 92% 0%100% 5% 85% 10%100% 0% 100% 0%89% 11% 84% 5%73% 5% 93% 2%
bronze hammer100% 3% 97% 0%100% 2% 93% 5%100% 8% 92% 0%100% 0% 100% 0%94% 9% 85% 6%86% 2% 96% 2%
steel hammer100% 7% 82% 11%100% 0% 100% 0%100% 6% 90% 5%100% 2% 98% 0%97% 2% 86% 11%82% 3% 95% 2%
adamantine hammer48% 96% 3% 1%21% 94% 4% 2%14% 97% 2% 1%38% 95% 3% 2%12% 94% 3% 3%9% 97% 3% 1%
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver mace100% 6% 94% 0%99% 7% 93% 0%93% 6% 89% 5%99% 15% 85% 0%56% 17% 82% 1%20% 15% 83% 2%
copper mace100% 4% 96% 0%94% 16% 80% 4%92% 2% 88% 10%100% 7% 93% 0%52% 26% 72% 2%20% 14% 84% 2%
iron mace100% 7% 93% 0%95% 6% 94% 0%97% 1% 99% 0%100% 12% 88% 0%53% 25% 74% 1%19% 15% 83% 2%
bronze mace100% 1% 99% 0%100% 5% 95% 0%97% 5% 95% 0%100% 0% 100% 0%62% 14% 84% 2%21% 12% 86% 2%
steel mace100% 6% 90% 4%98% 8% 92% 0%91% 5% 95% 0%100% 18% 78% 4%53% 20% 75% 4%21% 12% 86% 2%
adamantine mace35% 85% 11% 4%32% 78% 20% 2%15% 82% 16% 2%34% 79% 19% 2%21% 77% 21% 2%9% 81% 17% 2%
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver spear68% 9% 74% 17%45% 16% 62% 22%24% 35% 32% 33%63% 6% 74% 20%14% 81% 7% 11%9% 89% 3% 8%
copper spear94% 0% 66% 34%61% 10% 64% 26%42% 21% 53% 26%66% 4% 86% 10%15% 87% 1% 12%10% 78% 7% 15%
iron spear100% 0% 4% 96%99% 0% 13% 87%25% 59% 13% 28%66% 20% 23% 57%15% 89% 1% 9%8% 96% 0% 4%
bronze spear100% 0% 68% 32%100% 0% 42% 58%29% 42% 13% 45%70% 14% 35% 52%17% 86% 4% 11%8% 76% 15% 8%
steel spear97% 0% 64% 36%100% 0% 49% 51%100% 0% 22% 78%100% 0% 59% 41%16% 77% 5% 18%8% 90% 4% 6%
adamantine spear98% 0% 22% 78%100% 0% 21% 79%100% 0% 13% 87%98% 0% 31% 69%100% 0% 23% 77%2% 80% 10% 10%
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver sword11% 40% 17% 42%6% 65% 0% 35%5% 86% 6% 8%9% 62% 12% 26%6% 68% 4% 28%3% 58% 8% 33%
copper sword13% 57% 10% 32%7% 43% 6% 51%6% 60% 6% 34%9% 57% 7% 36%6% 79% 2% 19%3% 65% 2% 33%
iron sword80% 0% 0% 100%59% 0% 4% 96%7% 61% 3% 36%10% 66% 9% 24%6% 62% 8% 30%3% 43% 11% 45%
bronze sword65% 0% 0% 100%50% 0% 9% 91%6% 45% 14% 42%11% 66% 5% 29%4% 56% 2% 42%3% 50% 11% 39%
steel sword98% 0% 7% 93%97% 0% 0% 100%85% 0% 6% 94%98% 0% 0% 100%5% 73% 5% 22%3% 57% 15% 27%
adamantine sword98% 0% 0% 100%100% 0% 0% 100%100% 0% 0% 100%100% 0% 0% 100%100% 0% 0% 100%1% 19% 5% 76%
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver axe4% 49% 11% 40%1% 0% 0% 100%2% 12% 4% 85%5% 41% 5% 54%2% 4% 0% 96%2% 0% 0% 100%
copper axe3% 64% 2% 33%2% 0% 7% 93%2% 0% 0% 100%3% 37% 0% 62%1% 0% 0% 100%2% 0% 0% 100%
iron axe41% 0% 3% 97%18% 0% 0% 100%2% 28% 0% 72%4% 33% 2% 64%2% 0% 0% 100%2% 0% 0% 100%
bronze axe19% 0% 0% 100%18% 0% 0% 100%1% 21% 7% 71%4% 53% 0% 47%2% 5% 0% 95%2% 0% 0% 100%
steel axe84% 0% 0% 100%100% 0% 0% 100%83% 0% 0% 100%77% 0% 0% 100%4% 44% 2% 55%1% 0% 0% 100%
adamantine axe97% 0% 0% 100%100% 0% 0% 100%97% 0% 0% 100%94% 0% 0% 100%96% 0% 0% 100%2% 0% 6% 94%

Unfortunately, the max post size doesn't allow me to post both the new and the old data, so i'll post the old data in my next post below.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 07:51:30 am by zagibu »
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Nobu

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2010, 08:45:35 pm »

I bet that hammers end up being more useful against undead and non-living things since you can smash them to pieces... once they stop not being destroyable.
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zagibu

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 09:08:43 pm »

Old data:
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver hammer21% 66% 31% 3%20% 58% 41% 1%17% 69% 30% 1%14% 68% 31% 1%18% 61% 37% 2%5% 82% 18% 0%
copper hammer17% 66% 32% 2%17% 65% 32% 3%15% 65% 33% 2%16% 60% 39% 1%15% 71% 28% 1%4% 95% 4% 1%
iron hammer17% 69% 29% 2%11% 76% 22% 2%13% 73% 25% 2%13% 67% 31% 2%13% 70% 28% 2%4% 95% 5% 0%
bronze hammer19% 67% 31% 2%16% 66% 32% 2%14% 70% 29% 1%12% 76% 22% 2%13% 74% 25% 1%4% 90% 8% 2%
steel hammer17% 71% 28% 1%14% 65% 35% 0%13% 71% 28% 1%12% 74% 25% 1%13% 68% 31% 1%3% 94% 5% 1%
adamantine hammer1% 99% 0% 1%1% 100% 0% 0%1% 99% 0% 1%1% 99% 0% 1%1% 100% 0% 0%1% 98% 0% 2%
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver mace18% 73% 25% 2%16% 76% 22% 2%13% 75% 23% 2%12% 82% 16% 2%15% 72% 26% 2%6% 83% 16% 1%
copper mace14% 84% 14% 2%12% 75% 22% 3%13% 73% 25% 2%11% 77% 22% 1%12% 79% 19% 2%5% 83% 16% 1%
iron mace16% 76% 23% 1%12% 80% 19% 1%11% 83% 15% 2%10% 78% 20% 2%12% 76% 23% 1%4% 83% 16% 1%
bronze mace17% 70% 29% 1%12% 83% 15% 2%12% 77% 22% 1%12% 74% 25% 1%11% 81% 18% 1%6% 79% 20% 1%
steel mace15% 81% 18% 1%12% 76% 23% 1%11% 78% 19% 3%10% 85% 14% 1%11% 82% 16% 2%4% 85% 14% 1%
adamantine mace1% 99% 0% 1%1% 99% 0% 1%1% 97% 0% 3%1% 100% 0% 0%1% 99% 0% 1%1% 100% 0% 0%
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver spear13% 67% 31% 2%10% 65% 33% 2%8% 72% 26% 2%8% 73% 25% 2%8% 70% 29% 1%2% 74% 25% 1%
copper spear8% 78% 21% 1%8% 75% 24% 1%7% 85% 14% 1%7% 86% 13% 1%7% 78% 20% 2%2% 74% 22% 4%
iron spear98% 0% 94% 6%9% 63% 34% 3%8% 72% 26% 2%6% 83% 14% 3%6% 86% 13% 1%1% 77% 21% 2%
bronze spear99% 0% 100% 0%98% 0% 100% 0%99% 0% 100% 0%7% 74% 25% 1%6% 85% 13% 2%2% 68% 32% 0%
steel spear99% 0% 90% 10%99% 0% 100% 0%99% 0% 100% 0%99% 0% 100% 0%8% 76% 23% 1%2% 71% 27% 2%
adamantine spear99% 1% 99% 0%99% 0% 100% 0%99% 0% 100% 0%99% 0% 100% 0%99% 0% 100% 0%1% 71% 26% 3%
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver sword3% 59% 23% 18%9% 74% 17% 9%3% 65% 19% 16%3% 70% 17% 13%3% 55% 27% 18%1% 32% 46% 22%
copper sword3% 65% 25% 10%3% 66% 26% 8%3% 66% 19% 15%3% 55% 31% 14%2% 52% 40% 8%1% 36% 48% 16%
iron sword98% 0% 11% 89%9% 79% 2% 19%2% 62% 3% 35%2% 52% 4% 44%2% 60% 7% 33%1% 45% 14% 41%
bronze sword98% 0% 17% 83%100% 0% 20% 80%99% 0% 6% 94%2% 65% 2% 33%2% 53% 6% 41%2% 48% 8% 44%
steel sword98% 0% 3% 97%100% 0% 10% 90%98% 4% 15% 81%100% 0% 2% 98%2% 50% 3% 47%1% 43% 5% 52%
adamantine sword98% 0% 16% 84%100% 0% 31% 69%98% 0% 8% 92%99% 0% 21% 79%100% 0% 5% 95%1% 34% 3% 63%
silver armorcopper armoriron armorbronze armorsteel armoradamantine armor
silver axe7% 60% 0% 40%14% 18% 43% 39%5% 51% 11% 38%4% 50% 2% 48%6% 69% 1% 30%1% 10% 0% 90%
copper axe5% 58% 6% 36%4% 63% 0% 37%4% 50% 2% 48%4% 44% 0% 56%4% 62% 3% 35%1% 11% 2% 87%
iron axe94% 0% 3% 97%9% 28% 36% 36%4% 46% 3% 51%3% 50% 0% 50%3% 42% 0% 58%1% 19% 0% 81%
bronze axe100% 0% 0% 100%100% 0% 6% 94%91% 0% 0% 100%3% 48% 1% 51%4% 58% 2% 40%2% 13% 0% 87%
steel axe97% 0% 8% 92%100% 0% 0% 100%97% 0% 0% 100%96% 0% 0% 100%4% 53% 4% 43%1% 6% 0% 94%
adamantine axe98% 0% 2% 98%100% 0% 0% 100%93% 15% 0% 85%100% 0% 0% 100%97% 0% 0% 100%2% 10% 0% 90%

[Old post:]
I have to revise my remarks about adamantine a bit, it seems that blunt weapons like hammers and maces don't profit from being made of adamantine. Hammerers and macers with steel weapons tend to win.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 05:17:41 pm by zagibu »
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Savarin

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2010, 09:26:53 pm »

Try a slade warhammer, not possible in Dwarf Mode, but absolutely vicious in the arena.
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zagibu

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 10:01:34 pm »

You are right. Looking at the raws, I noticed its high density. It seems platinum does equally well in warhammers, having a similarly high density.
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bmaczero

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 10:16:49 pm »

My research collaborates these findings.  I pitted two identical dwarves, one with a steel warhammer, one with adamantine, against each other.  I did four pairs in four seperate rooms.  The steel-wielders won all four.
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zagibu

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 10:33:14 pm »

It seems to be not quite balanced yet. A bronze-clad platinum-hammer wielder wins almost every time against steel armored dwarves, no matter what weapons they have (except slade hammers, which are even better, of course). Every blow seems to break bone, even through the armor.
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sneakey pete

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 11:08:32 pm »

Does the whole " steel is 1.33 times better than iron", apply now?
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IronyOwl

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 11:10:58 pm »

No. Material properties have been completely reworked, and most people aren't really sure which properties do what now.
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Shaostoul

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 11:38:54 pm »

All I gotta say is looking the modding thread area, there's a community combat balance overhaul, very worth while.
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opsneakie

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 02:51:40 am »

Combat seems fine to me as is, but it seems like I'm the only one who thinks so.

Hammers and maces break limbs like they're made of styrofoam.

Swords and axes cut the bad guys into little pieces.

Spears go straight through you and destroy your organs.

I don't get what's wrong with that. Seriously, I'd love it if someone could explain the problem there.
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maanahr

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 03:46:55 am »

From what I've seen so far, I'd say one of the problems is actually more AI related; units keep fighting until one side is dead.

In my (limited) experience around my fort so far:
Swords and axes give fast kills.
Hammers can incapacitate enemies quickly, but take a long time to actually kill.
Crossbows can inflict fatal wounds, but it takes a while for the victim to actually die.
Spears presumably the same, haven't really seen those in action much yet.

There isn't really any need to keep bashing or turning your target into a pincushion. It would work better if they would move on once a creature falls unconscious, is rendered harmless or has wounds that are clearly fatal.

From what I've heard, Megabeasts and undead are a separate problem.
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Nikov

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 04:52:54 am »

This:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cracks goblin-iron breastplates like eggshells. Try it out for yourself.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 04:59:16 am »

It seems to be not quite balanced yet. A bronze-clad platinum-hammer wielder wins almost every time against steel armored dwarves, no matter what weapons they have (except slade hammers, which are even better, of course). Every blow seems to break bone, even through the armor.
Why is this bad?

A platinum hammer would have considerably more force behind it than a steel hammer, assuming one was strong enough to swing it. Bronze is arguably a much better metal for armor than iron and is probably as good as steel, or so close as to make little difference. The platinum hammer, being far denser than steel, is going to shatter armor and bones quite easily.

Seems to be alright to me.


What I want to know is does studding a hammer with a heavier metal change its damage? Adamantine warhammer studded with lead = more damage? Impossible to test in the arena as far as I know.
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Socializator

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 05:19:57 am »

From what I've seen so far, I'd say one of the problems is actually more AI related; units keep fighting until one side is dead.

In my (limited) experience around my fort so far:
Swords and axes give fast kills.
Hammers can incapacitate enemies quickly, but take a long time to actually kill.
Crossbows can inflict fatal wounds, but it takes a while for the victim to actually die.
Spears presumably the same, haven't really seen those in action much yet.

There isn't really any need to keep bashing or turning your target into a pincushion. It would work better if they would move on once a creature falls unconscious, is rendered harmless or has wounds that are clearly fatal.

From what I've heard, Megabeasts and undead are a separate problem.

Sir, I think that you hit the nail on the head!

If I imagine what is going on, it looks quite absurd. Enemy got unconscious, with some severe injuries, yet my dwarfs keep bashing him, instead of focusing on that crossbowman who keeps shooting at them...

I assume real battle is not about killing, but about incapacitating the opponents, and that currently, thanks to current AI, is what makes such a difference between axes and hammers.
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