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YES! (i would use it)

NO! (i would not use it, and i think it is pointless/unethical/gross etc.)

yes, but i would dissable it if it was an init option (all yes voters are assumed to be for an init option, only vote here if you think it should be included but you would not use it)

[lucusLoC]

this is a vote on feces. i think there has been a few of these before, but with the new wounds and disease addition it puts the inclusion of feces in a new light. if you have an argument for or against post a short description of why (one to 2 sentences) and a link to a relevant discussion thread.

i wanted to put this to a vote because it is difficult to tell from the threads just how many people are actually for or against this idea. hopefully this will help us sort that out a little.

i will try to keep this post updated with arguments for and against, and relevant threads.

for starters:

Pro/for:
drown elves in feces
adds depth to simulation
fun to manage
cool adventurer sewers
point of weakness in a fortress
vomit is already in game
a more dedicated source of fertilizer (no wasting wood)
more sources for disease/infection
DF is not complete without it
a sewer mechanic is needed for the other grim anyway


con/against:
discussions about drowning elves in feces
too much to track/cpu drain
too immature
not fun to manage
too much time to code/Toady has better things to do
could turn new players away from the game
the new contaminate system adds enough grime already, we do not need more "filth"
this will happen
animal poo everywhere! (how do you manage that!?)
takes away from dorf work time
there are other forms of wast that would work better, with less contention
feces would be a new meme (drown it in poo/magma!)


and here is a link to the most recent thread on the subject:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=52643.0


Also, yes i realize this is on ESV, but ESV does not give you a good overview of what the community actually thinks of this rather contentious topic. hence the polling. pleas do not consider "priorities" or time line in your votes either, that is what the ESV is for.

also consider that this poll is not asking *how* it should be implemented, just *if*. assume that it would be implemented like you want it (generic "filth," specific "poo" etc.) please take all the discussions on how to the appropriate threads. please discuss how you would like it implemented to your hearts content (terminology wise anyway, lets please at least try to keep detailed implementations to the suggestion forums).

also also, to make things easier for me, could you all post a bullet point for me at the beginning of a post so i can just copy and paste? i would appreciate it (because i am lazy)

[Ivefan]

Where is the "I don't care/no point in discussing this" vote?
Come back with this vote in like 5 years or even later because there are so much other stuff for The Toad One to implement before this.

[Chicken Launcher]

Well for one thing this whole discussion is an exercise in futility since Toady already stated that he isn't going to add feces to the game. I wouldn't want it in anyway, because I find the whole idea that people would start planning drowning elves in shit on the forums distasteful.

Making a sewer system does present an interesting and potentially fun (or Fun) challenge, but I'm siding with Toady on this one.

[gtmattz]

Make all the polls you want, if Toady doesn't want it, he is not going to add it.

[Retro]

The whole point of sewer systems is looking cool. Putting poop in them would just be gross.

[lucusLoC]

this pool is designed to gauge the community feelings towards the idea. Toady said he would be for it if a tasteful way of doing it was found, and if there was enough community support. so far, in the first 5 minutes of polling, there are 4 for it and 2 against. we shall see if that trend continues.

@ivefan

i think the "don't care" would be found under no/pointless. . .

[Corona688]

I think it's a pretty silly idea.  Why is it needed?  I notice you didn't require peer-supported paragraphs for your own OP, heh.  I just hope the 99% that didn't know or care about this argument aren't going to have it ruined for them by the noisy 1% that keeps complaining they have no feces to throw.

I'd also add that adding feces could turn plenty of people off the game.  Where as I doubt anyone has looked at DF and said "you know, this just doesn't have enough feces for me to support this game."

[lucusLoC]

this really isn't a "support your argument" type thread, more like just an opinion thread. there are already several robust threads carrying on a good discussion, i have linked to the freshest one available, but if you know more i will link to those as well.

also the community seems pretty evenly split so far, and i would imagine that the yeas would have to far outnumber the nays for Toady to consider this.

[MrWiggles]

Feces and urine is on the eternal vote thing.

[Deon]

I would like it to be included, just to plan proper sewers, but after the working time/eating/shaving/nail cutting/washing/eating times are more balanced (if ever). Right now it would add more annoying cancellations, nothing else.
Also when you can make dwarves to distinguish "clean" water, "washing" water source and "other", I don't want them to clean their feces in my main well (where they clean blood now ).

So I voted YES, but I meant I don't want it right now, maybe some time later.

[KojaK]

With the recent idea of making it either a contaminant, or a separate fluid altogether, I'm for the idea. I'm more for the architecture of the game. I enjoy making a working well-designed fortress more than slaughtering elves anyway. *shrugs*

[Orkel]

Maybe if you could set a zone from the "i" menu to be used as a toilet, that would be set on top of holes, so you could have a hole (channel for example) in the ground where the dwarves go do their business in. Would be nice with a lever-pull river flush system to do every now and then.

I would only add one thing, that is "dwarf excrement" instead of both feces and urine.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

voted yes, but it shouldn't force you to make a sewer: have your dwarves do their stuff on a bucket built on their room, and have the lowly haulers empty the bucket in a hole till it fills up, then you dig another. also, there should be some uses for manure, as a field fertilizer; for tanning; or for lye making. i think it should be added to animals also, so it forces you to corral your animals away from your legendary dinning hall. also, i dont think this is high priority, but it would make me sad if it never gets implemented, i'm all for realism and i wouldnt mind if something is abstracted, but the way its done now it's simply ignored

[Warlord255]

The only real draw I see here is the construction of sewer and water regulatory systems as an architectural project.

With bathing and harmful contamination finally in the game, these can be constructed as desired with appreciable benefit. Therefore, clamoring for this addition on the grounds of adding to gameplay is moot.

[forsaken1111]

Are creatures automatically immune to their own secretions? Couldn't we mod dwarves to secrete a toxic substance which harms them if not removed regularly? Then we'd need to design a chamber to flush said secretion away for disposal...

and thus we modded in poop.