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YES! (i would use it)

NO! (i would not use it, and i think it is pointless/unethical/gross etc.)

yes, but i would dissable it if it was an init option (all yes voters are assumed to be for an init option, only vote here if you think it should be included but you would not use it)

[PTTG??]

THAT'S NOT WHAT IS BEING SUGGESTED.

It's an abstract "Filth" fluid, people! It's nothing more explicit than that!
I really doubt someone is going to say "Hur, this game with no graphics lets you dump creatures in something called Filth! Lol!" instead of "Hur, I just T-Bag'd some n00b in HALO, BRO, Lol!".

And remember, the time it would actually add on top of other already-planned features (arbitrary fluids, more flexible AI, and such) is actually rather minimal.

Let's try to avoid confusing the addition of one more fluid with the total collapse of DF into a socio-political cesspit.

And play Liberal Crime Squad before you get concerned about Toady One and controversy. Or I'm Voting For Myself, for that matter. Oh, wait, I think he took that last one down. Pity.

[Kilo24]

THAT'S NOT WHAT IS BEING SUGGESTED.

It's an abstract "Filth" fluid, people! It's nothing more explicit than that!

Then the title, OP, and discussion resulting from them is misleading.  And it should be clarified in the OP in a way that does not confuse it with a more specific system that would have the drawbacks we're chatting about.  It's currently ambiguous enough to allow for multiple interpretations, unlike your quoted post.  If your claim is the case, editing the OP at least or starting up a new topic without the misleading discussion would be in order to avoid confusion.

And Liberal Crime Squad had different aims - one of which included selling itself on controversy.  DF is trying to generate fantasy settings, most of which don't feature gratuitously controversial elements and as such many people won't care for that in their simulator.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

The only arguments I have seen thus far against bodily waste that actually show a problem from its implementation that cannot be remedied easily, or is in fact not a problem at all in my opinion, are of the kind posted by Kilo24 in the above post and Deathworks earlier.  Kilo24 and Deathworks got a good point with the image of the game thing.  I still think that this is not a strong enough reason to not put bodily waste into the game.  I feel like it's giving in to the very things that I hate about many video games and society in general.  Meh, this isn't the time or place to start some soap-box rant, but:

[...]

It shouldn't be that treating these features honestly and fairly would constitute a dramatic step towards profanity, although I understand that it probably would.  This is something we as a community should fight against if it ever tries to occur, dammit!  Whatevs... I feel like I've sorta blown things out of proportion now.

I am glad to see you understanding our concerns.

Basically, I have the same attitude like you and would actually want to see the sewers system implemented. However, seeing how being away just a little while already allowed the elves meme to become a feature(!) at the wiki makes me less optimistic about the community's willingness to speak out against memes.

It doesn't matter if a person does post about a poo trap on the forum. You have the awesome ability to not click and read it. And if the forum community finds it poor taste, then it'll create posting about such contraptions as taboo and berate those that do. Bay12, is good at beratement, like most on line communities.

I would like to point out the elf-human-dwarf system that was introduced in the wiki allegedly based on consent. Self-policing with humor is not that strong here on the forums. And I don't care about people making their "Me make poo trap, me cool!" threads. It is the high probability that just like magma, elf-hate, and cat-hate, that meme will show up in all kinds of unrelated threads.

And I don't want to wade through literally tons of shit looking for interesting conversation.

THAT'S NOT WHAT IS BEING SUGGESTED.

It's an abstract "Filth" fluid, people! It's nothing more explicit than that!
I really doubt someone is going to say "Hur, this game with no graphics lets you dump creatures in something called Filth! Lol!" instead of "Hur, I just T-Bag'd some n00b in HALO, BRO, Lol!".

Thank you for not reading the OP closely and also ignoring my post just a few posts above yours. Allow me to quote the interesting part for you:

Djohaal: I have repeatedly stated why feces have different connotations for me that are solely in the realm of the immature. And frankly, I regularly purchase online items from Japanese download shops that would probably make a lot of people here gross out and want to burn me on a stake or never talk to me again. Thus, I find the idea I would be a moral crusader quite amusing (especially since I am a genuine atheist).

However, since you suggested reading the OP, I want to return that suggestion right to you:

[...]
for starters:

Pro/for:
drown elves in feces
adds depth to simulation
fun to manage
cool adventurer sewers
point of weakness in a fortress
[...]

Strange, isn't it, that the very first pro argument the OP mentions is the immature usage of feces, namely to drown elves in it. Given how you can (and some people already do that, quite successfully) drown elves in water or magma (if you don't care to loot the corpses), drowning them in feces adds no new option in that field accept saying: "Look mom, poo! Cool! Hahahaha!" There is no new genuine functionality to that. The more mature points only make up the next points (see the quote).

Why is the immature one listed first? Is it because the OP sees that as the core point (i.e. the OP is mostly interested in using it in an immature way)? Or may it just have come first to his mind because those suggesting it regularly refer to that application?

Drowning things in feces is listed as the first reason in favor of adding this feature right there in the OP. This kind of contradicts your claim about what the discussion is about.

Deathworks

EDIT: Added a "don't" I forgot.

[Zangi]

Huzzah!

People who got it right on the nail.  And better received I might add... (Deathworks and Kilo24)

[lucusLoC]

deathworks and kilo24:

from the OP (quoted for a second time)

also consider that this poll is not asking *how* it should be implemented, just *if*. assume that it would be implemented like you want it (generic "filth," specific "poo" etc.) please take all the discussions on how to the appropriate threads.

should it be implemented is different than how it should be implemented. i don't care whats its called if the mechanics are decently accurate (diseases etc.)

if we handle it in a suitable way i am sure most of the issues could be avoided. if there are lots of ways to generate "filth" other than at the loo then it will be much harder to associate "filth" with "shit". off the top of my head other things that could generate "filth" could be rotting corpses, medical waste, used animal bedding and any number of other potentially dirty things. i am mostly concerned with the aspects of waste management that are present in a large community, and having to manage their sources and destinations.

and it drowning elves in unpleasant fluids is really causing you that much bother i will be the first to bow to the pressure and remove it, just to show that we can handle it.

[Raz]

Gouging people's eyes out - Cool!
Breaking children's bones - Totally acceptable!
Hacking off limbs and heads - Sweet!
Harvesting mermaid bones - Awwrite!
Locking up immigrants until they starve to death - Nothing wrong with it!
Melting people's faces off with magma - Rad!
Having a detailed physiology system that already includes tissue layers, bones, entrails, brains, vomit, blood and pus - Way to go!

Adding filth and waste management - HELL NO! What's wrong with you people that's so immature! Everybody knows true grown-ups don't talk about excrement. That would just give DF a negative image, because people don't already brag about the most violent atrocities they committed against the various in-game creatures! Also, everybody knows bodily functions such as excrement lie somewhere between violence and sex on a scale of vulgarity (with violence being totally acceptable and sex being utterly unthinkable).

[Vester]

I mentioned this at some point, but you get bonus points for being caustic.

[Kilo24]

if we handle it in a suitable way i am sure most of the issues could be avoided.

Absolutely - I just have opinions on what ways are considered suitable, and my endorsement of the idea hinges upon that.  Namely, I think that problems will arise if it's kept too explicit.

if there are lots of ways to generate "filth" other than at the loo then it will be much harder to associate "filth" with "shit". off the top of my head other things that could generate "filth" could be rotting corpses, medical waste, used animal bedding and any number of other potentially dirty things. i am mostly concerned with the aspects of waste management that are present in a large community, and having to manage their sources and destinations.

and it drowning elves in unpleasant fluids is really causing you that much bother i will be the first to bow to the pressure and remove it, just to show that we can handle it.

Then you are generalizing the original premise of the thread from handling feces into handling waste in general.  That's all right (though it still might merit a new topic); it's just pretty important that you clarify that that's what you're doing.  A "feces system" carries some different connotations from a "waste system" (such as feces being modeled in a particularly distinct manner, which is not something Deathworks or I want) that people will probably miss until they start thinking seriously about it in a discussion.
Drowning elves in shit is not the core of the problem here. *shrug*


Response to Raz- Yup, it's hypocritical, but it's the society we live in and changing it is a rather involved process.  Bloody fantasy epics depicting mass slaughter are more acceptable than zooming in on the puddle of urine a single recently dead guy leaves behind.

[Raz]

Thank you for recognizing my point. I agree with your statement, despite how irrational our way of thinking is. However, not recognizing that dwarves do need to get rid of their processed plump helmet man chunks in some way (seeing how detailed other bodily functions and properties are already modeled), in a form that does not need to be described in a detailed fashion but could provide an interesting challenge to fortress design, but rather refuting those points to personal objections seems rather silly to me (this is not aimed at you, Kilo24).

[Jimmy]

And frankly, I regularly purchase online items from Japanese download shops that would probably make a lot of people here gross out and want to burn me on a stake or never talk to me again.

Rapelay?

[PTTG??]

[GAME_HAS_VIOLENCE:ACCEPTABLE]
[GAME_HAS_CRAP:UNTHINKABLE]

[DalGren]

Well, it's obvious at this point that shit lovers want their fix at any cost. Any argument against shit is welcomed with stuff like "you limited moron! embrace shit! bend to my will because I say so!". I've never seen people being so annoying regarding bodily functions, and using the same arguments sexual deviants use to excuse their behaviors. (because don't tell me you never heard "(my)porn is shunned but violence is ALRIGHT! BAWWW")
Basically "accept our superior opinion just because", and using borderline demagogy to support it.
Almost no one is actually talking "waste". I am fine with "waste". "waste" is that generic green liquid that flows on movie sewers. But supporters are obviously having feces in mind. The topic title specifically talks feces, and the OP specifically talked about feces at first, hence why people are against feces, not sewage.
And when challenged about their opinions, people suddenly changes and goes "NO I MEANT SEWAGE".
Also notice how there are people here that went from "no shit" to "sewage is OK", but no single feces supporter has changed his mind. They just aren't willing to back up, they want shit yes or yes.
AND it's true that this topic is present in other threads, not limited to this one, that's why I am so annoyed with the topic.

If you want to move to SEWAGE only, change the thread title and vote accordingly, or you can't be taken seriously.
The topic's title is "Feces vote" and the pool is "Would you like feces in game", and I copypaste.

[Vester]

Technically, "waste and waste management" would be a better name.


EDIT:

Oh, also, your branding everyone who is for including "shit" in the game as a "shit lover" makes your post hypocritical and silly.

[cyks]

I would rather make bathrooms than hospitals.  It would help fill up jobs used for the cleaning labor alreaddy implemented, and increase the need for designing and planning a fort.

[Ilmoran]

Well, it's obvious at this point that shit lovers want their fix at any cost. Any argument against shit is welcomed with stuff like "you limited moron! embrace shit! bend to my will because I say so!". I've never seen people being so annoying regarding bodily functions, and using the same arguments sexual deviants use to excuse their behaviors. (because don't tell me you never heard "(my)porn is shunned but violence is ALRIGHT! BAWWW")
Basically "accept our superior opinion just because", and using borderline demagogy to support it.
Almost no one is actually talking "waste". I am fine with "waste". "waste" is that generic green liquid that flows on movie sewers. But supporters are obviously having feces in mind. The topic title specifically talks feces, and the OP specifically talked about feces at first, hence why people are against feces, not sewage.
And when challenged about their opinions, people suddenly changes and goes "NO I MEANT SEWAGE".
Also notice how there are people here that went from "no shit" to "sewage is OK", but no single feces supporter has changed his mind. They just aren't willing to back up, they want shit yes or yes.
AND it's true that this topic is present in other threads, not limited to this one, that's why I am so annoyed with the topic.

If you want to move to SEWAGE only, change the topic accordingly, or you can't be taken seriously.

Bullshit.  The people who are still discussing feces specifically are the ones going "OMG that's gross you can't put that in game, we'll be drowning in threads about poop".

It's a discussion thread.  That means that the idea being discussed can be altered through the discussion.  I'm not digging through the last 5 pages again to check every single post, but I doubt any of the people supporting the idea in the last 5 pages are talking specifically about feces; you're just putting words in their mouth and stereotyping them as "shit-lovers".

The only person who can change the topic title and the original post are moderators or the original poster, who has already, in more recent posts, started discussing it as filth/sewage rather than specifically feces.

if we handle it in a suitable way i am sure most of the issues could be avoided. if there are lots of ways to generate "filth" other than at the loo then it will be much harder to associate "filth" with "shit". off the top of my head other things that could generate "filth" could be rotting corpses, medical waste, used animal bedding and any number of other potentially dirty things. i am mostly concerned with the aspects of waste management that are present in a large community, and having to manage their sources and destinations.

and it drowning elves in unpleasant fluids is really causing you that much bother i will be the first to bow to the pressure and remove it, just to show that we can handle it.