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Author Topic: Real-world information in the Wiki?  (Read 40609 times)

Draco18s

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #300 on: May 08, 2010, 03:16:15 pm »

Except for the fact that over 70(!!) % of visitors to the wiki have NEVER played the game before.  That's approximately 35k visitors per day who have never played the game before.  (from traffic analysis, 91% of visitors have never visited the wiki before, 83% view one of the getting started tutorial pages for ~45 minutes or longer, and no other pages).

And then they're gone forever...

I highly doubt any of them notice the "article quality" tag at all.
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G-Flex

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #301 on: May 08, 2010, 11:10:26 pm »

Like I said, though, there isn't as strong a dichotomy between users and editors as you seem to think, and you seem to want to encourage there to be one.

I neither presume nor advocate a clear distinction between users and editors.  I'm not sure why you think I would.

I do, however, recognize the fact that editors will likely have some baseline understanding of game concepts, including the concept of quality.  If someone doesn't understand what quality means in DF I doubt they'd try to edit articles.

This is true, but if it doesn't have to be confusing, then it shouldn't be. The ironic usage of "fine" as a tag for something substandard is amusing and sensible to someone's who's very familiar with the game, sure, but it's better for that irony not to be there in the first place.

If it doesn't have to be confusing (to anyone, users or editors) then it shouldn't be. This doesn't have to be, so it shouldn't be.

Also, I've mentioned before how quality ranks, page templates, etc. are actually useful for users, even if they do not edit. If I read an article about something I know little about - say, on Wikipedia, or on the DF wiki, or any other wiki - I want to know if there's controversy about it, or if it's leaving stuff out, or if there are disputes about its accuracy, or, on the other hand, if there has been a consensus that the information is complete and reliable. This is always true, unless you're some sort of robot who takes every word on every article at face-value to the same degree regardless of how reliable knowledgeable people think it is.

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I largely agree with your statement regarding the desirability of turning users into editors, but I think it's more accurate to say that the purpose of the wiki is (1) to educate and inform new players of game mechanics and concepts, and (2) to consolidate game information from the forums and other sources for the use of all DF players.  Obviously, I think the primary purpose of the wiki is to serve new players.

The question, then, is how do we do that?  Questions regarding what form the quality labels should take should always start by asking what role they serve in furthering the greater purposes of the wiki.  I believe that quality labels have little direct relevance for new players and primarily (not exclusively, but primarily) serve the second purpose.

You say we need to warn new players about unreliable/incomplete information on the wiki.  I think the other mechanisms we have in place (D for Dwarf, disclaimer on the front page, discussion pages) sufficiently address this concern.  I also think the quality of the articles is self evident, even for new players.  I refer you to the examples in my prior post.

Those don't solve it because they are very incomplete. People are very unlikely to even visit the discussion page, the "D for Dwarf" is intended for comic content only, and the front-page disclaimer tells you nothing about a particular article. Also, a discussion page will get edited less often if it's not as clear on the article itself what its problems/weaknesses are; this is why wikis use templates.

Also, I'm aware of the purpose of the wiki, but I'm talking about what the wiki needs in order to fulfill it. One of those needs is to encourage users to become editors, and one very important tool there is to make known problems as obvious as possible.

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The only way I see quality labels being directly relevant to a new player, so new that they aren't familiar with DF's quality hierarchy, is if they see it, say "I wonder what that is", and click on it.  Of course, if they do that, they will not only clear up any confusion regarding the article's quality but also have a chance to learn about the game concept "quality".  :D

You shouldn't have to click on anything to know what the quality rank means, at least in a very general sense. Either way, the rank is going to make an immediate impression on the person seeing it, and someone who isn't familiar enough with DF to get the joke (which, I might add, is a highly subjective joke that even someone who KNOWS about the game might not understand quite as well as the people arguing about it on this thread) will, in fact, get the wrong impression.

As I said before, if it doesn't have to be at all confusing or misleading, then for obvious reasons, it shouldn't be.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #302 on: May 09, 2010, 07:15:37 pm »

I don't feel it's terribly productive or useful to try turning random Wiki traffic into editors... Those efforts would be better trained on Forumers--particularly, those who have been around for a longer term.

It might be useful to ask ToadyOne to Sticky a thread centered around the DF Wiki, and aimed at editing efforts, and attracting/guiding potential editors--whom, at minimum, it will be hoped would have baseline familiarity with the Forums. Not to mention, actually playing the game a few times

The Forums attract a more desireable audience. Not because they're inherently better informed, but simply because, if they aren't, it has a shot in hell of becoming apparent, when they start posting nonsense. Not to mention: easier to track down problems created by recognised "problem editors", and correcting those problems. 

Ofcourse, ToadyOne may perhaps be reticent to do such, as the Wiki is an independent effort apart from Bay12Games.
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Vercingetorix

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #303 on: May 09, 2010, 07:32:24 pm »

Actually, I got in to DF because of reading the Wiki...the game looks even more amazing when you have no idea what's going on and then you see some complex production chain for a group of goods.  Assuming that's your preferred style of game, that is.
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G-Flex

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #304 on: May 09, 2010, 10:09:03 pm »

I don't feel it's terribly productive or useful to try turning random Wiki traffic into editors... Those efforts would be better trained on Forumers--particularly, those who have been around for a longer term.

Way to be exclusionist. There are more people who visit the wiki and play the game than the people on this forum.

There are the people on the official IRC channel (who mostly don't come here), people on other IRC channels and forums, etc. The base of recruitment for the wiki should be on the wiki. Hell, the person who maintains the wiki seems to be on IRC more than he's on here.


The Forums attract a more desireable audience. Not because they're inherently better informed, but simply because, if they aren't, it has a shot in hell of becoming apparent, when they start posting nonsense.

This is extremely unreliable. Most people don't come on here blathering about whatever wrong ideas they have, and wrong ideas will still be apparent on the article itself. You don't need people posting wrong ideas on the forum in order to notice that the wrong ideas are on the wiki. You notice that by looking at the wiki.
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Mason11987

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #305 on: May 10, 2010, 12:52:51 pm »

User-friendliness was already borked the fuck out by the namespace migration, but you don't need to make it even more impenetrable for people who just want to find out how wells work.

I don't see how having small text in the top right corner of the screen disrupts your ability to type "well" into the search box and get what you're looking for.

"Agree to disagree"?
Moving in circles happens when people don't focus on the issue. The current labels are defective. The reasons are visible.
People have for some reason compared them to the previous labels; this is completely irrelevant.
People have argued against having any labels at all. Also irrelevant.
Nobody has even tried to claim that this system doesn't have these defects. The only real argument has been about how much of an impact the defects have. Why would you object over something like this? Even if you don't think it's defective enough for you to take action, don't complain when someone else wants to. Some of us care about these defects and plan to fix them.


So here are some suggested alternatives. Even those of you who don't care about the flaws in the current labels are encouraged to criticize these and suggest more.
  • Tattered | Fine | Masterwork
  • Article | Good article | Featured article
  • Bronze | Silver | Gold
  • Lead | Iron | Platinum
  • Stub | Article | Featured article
  • 1 | 2 | 3

Note that while the bottom ranked terms for 2, 3, and 6 don't have a negative connotation, at least they don't have a positive one.

There were flaws with the previous system.  Some of these were fixed by moving to fine/exceptional/master, but I see there are flaws there too.  It's not a simple change though and so I'll either change to something like "shoddy" when I get a chance, or you can take care of it vengeful because I assume you'll be thorough.



I wish this discussion were more organized, Might I be so bold as to suggest we discuss this on the wiki? and have different pages for different topics, some of which already exist here?

If we could have a forum here, that'd be best, but it seems like that won't happen, so having more then one thread to discuss everything wiki-related would be amazing.

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #306 on: May 10, 2010, 03:14:50 pm »

It's not being exclusionist (way to be dramatic!)--I'm not advocating that at all, anywhere--it's using common sense, by aiming for an audience that can be expected to have a certain minimum knowledge-base.

It's not like there's a way to turn the Wiki editing off for anyone. Certainly not until they've visited the Forums x amount of times or whatever.

Simple targeted advertizement, no exclusion implied.

Do we have a reliable way to track all the people who visit the Wiki? Is there an easy way to see how long they've been interested in DF?

The Forum automatically solves both of those problems, as well as making it extremely easy to contact each individual editor, in private. Which, to my mind, is considerably nicer than publicly announcing that their hard work sucks.

It's putting to use the tools that we have, when we can take advantage of them, where we happen to have them already in place.
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G-Flex

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #307 on: May 10, 2010, 03:43:19 pm »

Do we have a reliable way to track all the people who visit the Wiki? Is there an easy way to see how long they've been interested in DF?

That's hardly even relevant. You judge how good a wiki editor is by the quality of his edits. If he makes good edits, he's fine. If he makes bad edits, that's not fine, and you can talk to him about it via the wiki. That's why there are user talk pages.

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The Forum automatically solves both of those problems, as well as making it extremely easy to contact each individual editor, in private. Which, to my mind, is considerably nicer than publicly announcing that their hard work sucks.

This is not a problem requiring a solution, because it is not a problem. The wiki provides that functionality already, for anyone who uses it, not just people who go to this forum.

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It's putting to use the tools that we have, when we can take advantage of them, where we happen to have them already in place.

It's putting to use tools that don't need to be used and don't even apply to a lot of the editors and users involved.


Basically, it would be disorienting and pointless to have talk about the dfwiki going on at the forums, because dfwiki talk pages are there for that exact purpose. Hell, there have even been proposals for threaded discussion (with a format more similar to a webforum) in the talk pages. Splitting DFWiki talk between the wiki itself and this forum creates an unnecessary communication gap and solves virtually nothing. People who don't use this forum would miss out, and it would cause the rest of us to have to divide our attention between what's going on on the wiki, and what's going on on the forums, even when all we want to know is the wiki's business.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #308 on: May 11, 2010, 03:33:15 pm »

I have no idea why you're trying to make such a hard case for the Wiki being unconnected to the Forum. Both entities serve the purpose of informing players. Sure, there might be people who use the Wiki, and don't use the Forum, but why should they be such a special case?

Ok, it may be possible to keep everything divided up, and exclusive, but I hardly see why that would be anything other than a gross duplication of effort.

It's not at all necessary for the Wiki and the Forum to be two hostile camps.
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Grakelin

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #309 on: May 11, 2010, 03:35:30 pm »

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7.8 out of 100 overall wiki quality rating (approximate)

Source: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Main_Page#ixzz0negbDSdH

We're not doing too well.
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Tarran

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #310 on: May 11, 2010, 03:36:59 pm »

WHY is it falling?! Really?
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G-Flex

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #311 on: May 11, 2010, 03:48:44 pm »

I have no idea why you're trying to make such a hard case for the Wiki being unconnected to the Forum. Both entities serve the purpose of informing players. Sure, there might be people who use the Wiki, and don't use the Forum, but why should they be such a special case?

They shouldn't be. You're making it one.

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Ok, it may be possible to keep everything divided up, and exclusive, but I hardly see why that would be anything other than a gross duplication of effort.

It's not at all necessary for the Wiki and the Forum to be two hostile camps.

What? Who said anything about "hostile camps"? All I'm saying is that the best place to discuss the wiki is on the wiki.
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Grakelin

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #312 on: May 11, 2010, 03:51:15 pm »

I agree with G-Flex. It is easiest if the talk pages are used, especially because an individual can click on the talk page and see all of the discussion about a topic stored in one place, which would not be an option if we divided into a forum.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #313 on: May 11, 2010, 04:02:20 pm »

All I'm saying is that the best place to discuss the wiki is on the wiki.

This will be even more true if the Magmawiki Project's redesign of the talk pages works out.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Real-world information in the Wiki?
« Reply #314 on: May 11, 2010, 04:10:02 pm »

I agree with G-Flex. It is easiest if the talk pages are used, especially because an individual can click on the talk page and see all of the discussion about a topic stored in one place, which would not be an option if we divided into a forum.

I agree with that--as far as individual topics go. That makes perfect sense, to keep specific information regarding specific articles, in one place, and topical. But that's a specialized case that the Wiki can handle better than the Forum.

That's still no reason to keep the Forum out in the cold.

Good and bad articles could, for instance, be presented on the Forum, and then analyzed and deconstructed, in much the same manner as ThreeToe's stories. And people on the Forum who know a lot about a subject could be encouraged to write articles. For that matter, there's a great deal of information that's already here, that never shows up in the Wiki. 

I think it's pretty clear from this thread, that part of the reason the quality levels of the Wiki are down so low is because whoever's running the Wiki is/are just a little bit out of touch with the rest of the community. No matter how many millions of people you think are only visiting the Wiki, and not the Forum, the Forum is a much more social environment, and constantly active and up to date.

It would only help everybody involved, to increase the ties between Wiki and Forum.
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