Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8

Author Topic: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3  (Read 25397 times)

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2012, 04:11:19 am »

is there another husband relatively accessible for my female character to marry?
New urgency to the above request: I found a dragonball.

Rosshi is one of the standard possible marriage partners. At a casual glance his marriage code appears to be in place, but I'm not certain whether it's possible to get to it given the errors in his dialogue. I'll look into it, but if you're in a hurry you can rent a hangar at the airport.

Also...I'm not totally certain, but I think artifacts never decay in persistent zones the way non-artifacts do over time. If you drop it at Rosshi's house, Pilaf's Castle, etc. I think it will stay there until you come back.

Related: to anticpate the question: in this version Videl appears to be the only functional marriage partner for men.

Quote
is there somewhere other than the main town that I can buy stuff?

There are a couple money sinks in the game, but the WT zone is the only real "shopping area." One example: once Oolong sends the Aru villagers back home you can pay Joesphine to enhance your armor.

Of course, if the money is real burning a hole in your pockets, you could buy a capsule from capsule corp and use it to store your dragonball.

Quote
I can afford to fly, but where too?  Hm, maybe I'll visit that guy in the tower.
  Can I use an airplane to visit him?

...probably. I think any form of flight will work, but there are much easier ways to climb the tower.


EuchreJack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of Norderland - Lv 20 SKOOKUM ROC
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2012, 04:22:36 am »

Hm, I didn't know that rented hanger space could be used for storage.

Sadly, this character died trying to take out the ninja master.  Learned that a light source and sunglasses are needed when fighting ninja.  Not a big deal because I left the sumo ring earlier while dueling Honda, so this character would never have been able to close all the schools anyways.

EDIT: Speaking of ninja, how does the throwing skill work?
Also speaking of ninja, how does the stealth skill work, when would it be useful, and generally how much stealth skill should I acquire?

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2012, 06:24:23 pm »

how does the throwing skill work?

In this version, apparently it doesn't. Thrown items use positional targeting rather than to hit vs AC rolls. Throwing skill affects your chances of landed a thrown object on the tile you throw it to, where it discharges its effect.

However, looking at the code it seems that while the pathing is implemented, the thrown object itself simply vanishes on arrival and any damage done is delivered to the tile the player is standing on. The only way to use a thrown item to damage anything is to teleport on top of it, and you'll always hit it regardless of throwing skill.



Don't mean to be a downer...but last night I spent several hours playing, got a character as far as Muscle Tower, looking through the code as I played to see where things stand. Unfortunately, there's so much that's just not implemented in this version, I kind of feel like it's not worth bothering unless a more recent version turns up.

Sure, the game is technically playable up to probably level 30-40 or so, but there looks to be about 5 months worth of missing development time and some of what's missing is important stuff. I could pop out a quick easy patch for problems like the firearm bug, lunch spawning new low level zones, the dual wield /equipping flashlights strangeness, etc. But half the chi trainers are gone or non functional, technomancy is broken and there's probably 70-100k worth of quests and dialogue that just isn't there because it hadn't been made yet. Some of which involve fairly important quest chains. It would seriously take 50-100 or more hours of work to replace this stuff and I'm just not going to do that unless a huge swarm of players come though, and I don't really anticipate we'll get that.

I sent out some emails to some old players and posted to the T4 forums, but so far nobody has responded with a newer version. I'll let you know if anything turns up, and I'll answer any questions you have about the game as it is...but personally, knowing how much is missing, I'm heavily discouraged from trying to pick up the pieces starting from this version.

Quote
how does the stealth skill work, when would it be useful,
and generally how much stealth skill should I acquire?

Stealth isn't useful enough to be worth putting points into.


Only good reason to study ninjutsu in this version is for the ninja climbing claws. They allow you to travel over trees and mountains, which is admittedly very useful...but with stealth and throwing not working it's not really worth it. Especially since apparently the neither the ballet nor ninjutsu challenge quests are sufficiently implemented in this version to be completable. The ninjutsu challenge quest dungeon exists, but it is super crazy hard, and with technomancy not working there's no point trying to collect the power suits from it.

Actually, if you typically don't last long enough to reach training caps anyway, it would be worth putting a point training ninjustu just to get access to the climbing claws. Otherwise, I'd recommend always destroying it in this version. Though note that the ballet challenge quest appears to be uncompletable also, so if you study ballet you'll never be able to increase the training caps there and the Dojo Destroyer quest will also be incompletable. Though that's probably not a huge problem since the default ballet caps are reasonably high.

EuchreJack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of Norderland - Lv 20 SKOOKUM ROC
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2012, 09:32:11 pm »

Wow, stealth is more useless than I had thought.  I was hoping it allowed striking from hiding and reduction of enemy detection radius.  But I can see it helping for a few scout builds*

*Scout builds are characters with high speed that only exist to tour the world and aren't meant to be viable...
Although their high speed makes them surprisingly effective, to the point where they sort of dominate my high score list despite being devised as expendable, lol.  I'm still surprised that my Strength 6 Intelligence 6 character who failed to learn from both Rosshi and Splinter is near the top of my score list, of course her Speed 14 Charisma 14 helped.

Don't worry about updating this version of the game, or even patching.  I'm having fun tinkering with it as is, and I'm quite happy just to learn what does exist rather than dwell on what doesn't.  So don't worry about working on this version.  If a better one comes up, great.  If not, at least this is fun, for while.

I actually don't mind lunch's current spawning habits.  Dedicated fighters can deal with her around when she spawns irregardless of location, provided she spawns nearby (and can treat the cuts she likes to give).

I was under the impression that throwing skill allowed the player to throw enemies.  Guess I was far wrong on that one.  Is it even possible for the player to throw enemies?

Another benefit of joining the ninja school is free poison.  I haven't used it myself, but based on release notes it should double the damage of many weapons.  That tips the scales in Ninjitsu's favor for many weapon builds.

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2012, 04:03:50 am »

Scout

Out of curiosity, how much progress have you map figuring out how the world is laid out?

Quote
I'm still surprised that my Strength 6 Intelligence 6 character who failed to learn from
both Rosshi and Splinter is near the top of my score list, of course her Speed 14 Charisma 14 helped.

Pretty much all of my characters start with 14 speed regardless of build. It's too useful to not have. Taken to the extreme...14 dex + 14 speed, set to run mode and a level 1 character can outrun and (theoretically kill too, but unlikely) a green belt. Even if you do 6 str 6 dex and 14 speed, get the knife from Marcos, it's possible to have an orange belt be your first kill at level 1 thereby jumping instantly to level 3 without spending any skillpoints. Though it requires a little dancing.

Quote
I was under the impression that throwing skill allowed the player to throw enemies.
Is it even possible for the player to throw enemies?

For that you want the throwing ability rather than throwing skill, which appears to also not be implemented in this version.

Quote
poison

I hadn't considered that. Checking...yes, poison appears to be fully implemented.

EuchreJack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of Norderland - Lv 20 SKOOKUM ROC
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2012, 10:43:49 am »

Scout

Out of curiosity, how much progress have you map figuring out how the world is laid out?
Since I can purchase swimming at level 1, and it appears the whole world is connected to the great body of water, I've seen every sector of the earth, although I haven't explored all the sites yet.  14 Speed isn't enough to outrun brown and black belts.  And the Red Ribbon Army has guns.

Below is my ramblings about stats, as I generally understand them.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2013, 12:59:07 am »

I've never gotten a character to level 25

What's killing you? Completing Dojo Destroyer should put you in that ballpark. Yawara is easily defeatable by level 16, and once you beat one instructor the gains from that fight should leverage you enough to defeat most of the others. Jacque, Charleton and Hatsumi are the only difficult fights. And Ballet, I guess. But the dialogue surrounding that battle is too buggy to do anyway.

Also, don't forget the tournament. The first few rounds past the black belt aren't usually too bad and some of those fights will award thousands of xp. Between that and the trainers, if you can make it to anywhere in the 16-18 range, you should be able to get to 25-30 within ten minutes.

Quote
usually play as a female

I think good arguments can be made either way, but in this particular version with its bugs and missing dialogue, women probably have it better overall. Though personally I find sumo to be a very good school regardless of build. The Oolong house is convenient, of course, but a sumo practitioner can generally carry around a dragonball without a speed penalty.

It's less critical in later versions where Bulma is available as a marriage partner. Marrying her does come with the disadvantage of making the dragon radar unavailable unless you're a technomancer...but in this version neither the dragon radar nor technomany work at all anyway.

Quote
willpower will probably be vital at higher levels, but since I've never gotten
a character to level 25, it usually doesn't bother me too much.

Yes, I don't think willpower helps against anything much before Muscle Tower. And even from that point on it doesn't come up often. Unless you're a chi practitioner willpower is a good dump stat.


Quote
I usually reduce strength a bit

I generally use strength as a dump stat. Sure you'll sometimes do no damage, but that's not really a problem beyond the first 2-3 levels. Overall my starting stats usually look something like:

Str: 6 Wil: 6 Dex: 6
Con: 14: Chr: 14 Spd: 14
Int: 10

Occassionally I might take a few points out of charisma and put them into intelligence for the convenience factor. Technomancers pretty much need to start with 14 intelligence, but with technomancy not working in this version there's not much point in taking technology skill to 20.

Quote
I'll frequently reduce charisma by one point.  I usually shy away from more than that because charisma at certain levels is necessary for certain quests, and the buy-sell rate modifier is nothing to sneeze at. 

Yes, charisma is fairly important in DBT. I don't usually like to start with less than 12. If I remember correctly, 20 is the highest requirement for any dialogue option, and there are several very good things that open up at 16, but 14 will get you through the game and 12 is close enough to 14 that one can pick up a piece of charisma enhancing gear and never have to pay skillpoints to increase it. Charisma, intelligence and willpower are expensive to raise and you don't want to get stuck having to use dragonball wishes on stuff like that.

Quote
For non-technologist builds, I usually reduce intelligence a bit, since I can increase intelligence gradually from the library.

If I need points for other things, I sometimes reduce dexterity by one, simply because dexterity seems to be the easiest stat to increase by schools.  I'm usually lerry to reduce it any further because it regulates to-hits and negates enemy hits.

Evaluating the value of dexterity is kind of complicated. Yes...it does regulate a lot, but as you say, it's one of the easier attributes to increase. Apart from the trap evasion bonus, everything dexterity gives you you can get from other skills. Also, if you're using run movement mode, while dexterity will give you a small speed boost, the AC bonus it gives you is reduced compared to normal movement mode. I personally find the convenience of starting with 10 intelligence greater than the numerical bonuses of starting with 10 dexterity, so I routinely use dex as a dump stat.

If my math is correct, it would look something like this:

10 int 6 dex
-4 AC
-4 to hit

6 int 10 dex
All identify requirements increased by 4
+1 speed while running

Again, it's a bit more complicated than that, but in general if I'm playing a character build that needs dexterity, it's cheaper to buy dexterity than it is to buy intelligence, and to get those extra 4 points from the library would take 20 character levels. That's a long time. Granted, not everybody needs intelligence. But it's a convenience thing. The game is just easier to play if you have it. Only a very few character builds can identify all item types, and it falls on intelligence to make up the difference.

As for dexterity, ultimately, there are two types of characters who care about dexterity:

 * Characters who absolutely need dexterity for training unlocks. For example, kung fu fighters who need dex to unlock weapons training and judo fighters who need it to unlock speed.
 * Characters who, for one reason or another, would prefer more armor over the convenience of easier identify. Notably, there's a specific build that when done properly, makes you completely unhittable by the vast majority of all melee attacks in the game. That particular build is dependent on (amongst other things) having a high dexterity. And by the middle game, even if you're not going for full hit immunity, having high armor adds a good deal of survivability and dexterity gives you a reasonable compromise alternative to having to invest in martial arts skill in order to get your hit bonus high enough to hit anything. You don't want to be a sumo barehanded fighter who didn't take kungfu or a fencing weapons fighter who didn't take ballet, and end up unable to hit anything because of it. So the choice is basically either martial arts for to hit and the convenience of easy armor identification, or dexterity for to hit and armor. It's possible to go no AC + high health, but no martial arts skill + no dexterity means that by the early middle part of the game most uniques will chew you to pieces because you can't hit them.

For characters who do invest in martial arts skill, I find that dexterity is nice to have...but there just aren't enough skillpoints to go around to invest very much in it.

Quote
I also get the strength and intelligence increases from these
facilities more often due to starting with memberships purchased

Library and gym training availability is based on total character levels, not when you started. One training is allowed per 5 character levels, with a freebie at level 1. If you sign up at level 1, you can study/workout once right away. Then at level 5 you can do it again. But if you sign up at level 5, you can study/workout twice right away. Sign up at level 100 and you can do all your study/workout sessions at once with no net loss.

Quote
male characters only have one item of +2 charisma that they can easily acquire.

Crocodile skin boots, mirrored shades, tuxedos, silk gloves and flight jackets all give charisma boosts of varying amounts and can be worn be men. All of those except the tux and flight jacket are common drops in Mr Satan's estate. Also, if you've applied the ego item workaround described elsewhere, most clothing types can pick up the designer type which gives them a charisma bonus. Though even with the fix I notice that sometimes ego types get applied in name only, but provide no show no actual bonus when you examine them.

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2013, 02:55:20 am »

dexterity

Whoops...missed the obvious: dexterity also provides a bonus to avoiding monster throws. That's not insignificant, since so many monsters can throw. Related, I'm looking at the formula now. Chance for a monster to throw you is computed as so:

If you're in immovability mode, they cannot throw you. Period.

Otherwise, add dexterity + dodge. This is your evade chance.

If you're currently under the effects of body oil, then for each piece of body armor or cape that you're not wearing (exposed oily flesh is slippy) add +25 to your evade chance.

Monster rolls 1-100 and adds three times the level of their throwing skill. If they get equal to or above your evade, they succesfully throw you.



For example, black belts have level 2 throwing skill. So if you have dexterity 10 and dodge zero, they roll 1d100+6 and have to get 10 or higher. They'll succeed 97% of the time.

Whereas Honda has level 4 throwing skill. So if you have 20 dexterity and 20 dodge, he'll roll 1d100+12 and have to get 40 or higher. He'll succeed 73% of the time. But take off your shirt and cape and oil yourself up and he'll succeed only 43% of the time.



So, yet another thing that dexterity helps with. But you'd need to spend a lot of points to notice the difference.

EuchreJack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of Norderland - Lv 20 SKOOKUM ROC
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2013, 03:40:28 am »

Crocodile skin boots, mirrored shades, tuxedos, silk gloves and flight jackets all give charisma boosts of varying amounts and can be worn be men. All of those except the tux and flight jacket are common drops in Mr Satan's estate. Also, if you've applied the ego item workaround described elsewhere, most clothing types can pick up the designer type which gives them a charisma bonus. Though even with the fix I notice that sometimes ego types get applied in name only, but provide no show no actual bonus when you examine them.

I was actually refering to the costs of the items.  A tuxedo is over 1000 Zn, whereas a tutu is 300 (less if you can find a lower-quality version, which is often the case).  My male has to find or buy the crocodile skin boots (they cost around 2000 Zn), whereas the high heels give the exact same charisma boost and every female character gets them by default (and males can't even wear high heels).  Since those are the items that discriminate based on gender, you can see how males have it harder than females.

Although, I too will pick male character just because I want to learn at the Sumo school.  It really is a good school, and the total immunity to throws is a sweet ability to learn prior to fighting black belts.
I tend to die mostly from my inexperience with the mod, especially around level 16 and up.  I've never faced the tournament foes, so I wasn't sure of which foes to face at what levels.  I still haven't fought all the schools.  I once died in Satan's Estate just because I didn't run away when health was low (I've found cockiness is deadly in every game with permadeath, lol).

The reason I rate dexterity higher than constitution is because I personally prefer not to get hit than to have a large reservour of hitpoint to take hits from.  The reason I prefer to avoid hits (or take less damage when I do get hit) is because reliance on hitpoints to soak damage means more time spent recharging hitpoints.  And I sometimes find that dungeons don't give me the chance to recharge.  So if some foe get to my character before my hitpoints recharge, my survival odds are higher if I've got a dodge character instead of a hitpoint one.

Thanks for the data on enemy throws.  Honda in particular is quite deadly with his throws.

A couple things I'm confused about:
1) Healing in general.  I know the first aid skill exists, and acupuncture is possible to level up, but what do they do?  Is there any sort of instant-heal methods?
2) You've mentioned techonmancy as broken.  I'm not certain what you mean by that.  I understand that deconstructing items is not functioning.  I also understand that to be a big deal, as it allows you to learn how to make items and enhancements to items.  But what else is broken about it?  I've also noticed that the Chi power that allows travel between worlds is gone (based upon the help files saying it's broken and the fact that the guy who is suppose to train interplanet teleport was mentioned as impossible to meet), so I'm assuming that technomancy is the only way to leave Earth (unless I can somehow swipe a spaceship from someone [helpfiles mention somebody else has a spaceship], but I somehow doubt non-technologically inclined characters will be able to operate it).

Also, I'm wondering if our discussion about this game should perhaps be moved to a topic in "Other Games", since we're no longer discussing a "Let's Play".  But if you want justification for keeping this topic open as is, we're both discussing different ways of playing this game, so "playing with your buddies" is certainly occuring.

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2013, 03:50:07 am »

Quote
Some people are never happy.

No, you can't. Out of nearly 300 episodes, transformation was an ability only ever demonstrated by Oolong and Puar, both of whom were so completely minor characters that I'd be surprised if even one in ten people reading this thread could even name them.

Also keep in mind that they were both non-combatants, and the transformation ability itself had no combat utility because the user didn't gain strengths that might be implied by the assumed form. Here's a video of Oolong transforming into a huge, armored knight, but he gains no strength or durability in this form, and even things like a kid firing a slingshot and hot soup hurt him through the "armor" he's made.

No major character, no humans and no fighters ever learned the ability throughout all of Dragonball and Dragonball Z combined. Complaining that it's such an "oversight" seems like a serious overstatement to me.

Yes, it was considered. But how would you implement it? In the show the ability was basically cosmetic, but it allows you to change into anything. Do you understand the coding overhead involved with allowing a user to transform into "anything?" I went through that with the dragonballs. Looking through the scripts right now...the dragonball wishing code is 41k. But the dragonballs were a major part of the world and a recurring theme and it was worth the time to implement them properly.

It gave them abilities that they did not have such as Oolong's rocket form which did in fact give him super flying speed as well it was clear that there are other utilities such as gaining razor edges. (In fact in one episode they considered using Oolong to move Goku to another location very quickly but found that he couldn't hold his weight)

It just feels like an oversight to make a game based on mostly Dragonball and not to include the obvious cool ability right there. Given that the Ninja turtles with their own martial arts included in the game, and a few other features I don't want to spoil.

As well "What could you use it on?" is answered right there. It doesn't "Increase" your abilities it just rearranges it. Boom! perfect mechanics, an ability that allows you to rearrange your abilities and gain other ones, and that is just one use I grabbed at the top of my head.

You don't have to even give fully fleshed out forms. They easily could have been generic to represent a wide variety of possible ones... Or just given a very limited set that you had to learn at a 1 for 1 basis. It could also be where you take "abilities" that cost attribute points into your new form. I am clearly pulling this out of my butt but I have demonstrated that "Transformation" isn't really something as hard as you may be thinking.

The reason it was never added is rather simple. They never added it. I doubt there are other reasons.

As for never happy, you would be surprised at what feature actually hooked me on this (until I couldn't continue through the game because I sucked at it).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 04:14:01 am by Neonivek »
Logged

EuchreJack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of Norderland - Lv 20 SKOOKUM ROC
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2013, 04:17:46 am »

you would be surprised at what feature actually hooked me on this (until I couldn't continue through the game because I sucked at it).

If you don't mind my guessing, I'm going to say you liked the marriage mechanic.

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2013, 04:19:44 am »

you would be surprised at what feature actually hooked me on this (until I couldn't continue through the game because I sucked at it).

If you don't mind my guessing, I'm going to say you liked the marriage mechanic.

Nope.

Close though.

Besides Marriage mechanics tend to be lackluster in every game that included it EVER! Even Harvest Moon.
Logged

Hanzoku

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2013, 04:20:50 am »

*cough* From what I gather from this thread, you're actually arguing with the mod's creator.

As an aside, what you're requesting would lead to such broken power gaming that it wouldn't be implemented simply because of that. The ability to completely ignore having to build your character in a certain way because you can just swap all your stats around as you desire is... broken.
Logged

EuchreJack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of Norderland - Lv 20 SKOOKUM ROC
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2013, 04:27:39 am »

you would be surprised at what feature actually hooked me on this (until I couldn't continue through the game because I sucked at it).

If you don't mind my guessing, I'm going to say you liked the marriage mechanic.

Nope.

Close though.

Besides Marriage mechanics tend to be lackluster in every game that included it EVER! Even Harvest Moon.

Since I'm close, I'm curious what feature actually hooked you.

As for Marriage mechanics, yeah I agree.  I remember how upset I became with Elona once I realized that having my Orc marry a Bear didn't produce an Orc/Bear hybrid, but just let me transfer my stuff to a new character.  And I love how the independent, hardworking women of the Harvest Moon saga were content to sit around the house and complain about the character staying out late once they got married.  However, if you really want a game that focuses on forming strategic marriages, you should give the Crusader Kings series a try (in fact, the first game is perhaps better because you can use your wife as a talented advisor, wheras the second game mostly killed that feature for honestly unknown reasons).

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Lets Play Dragonball T, a module for ToME3
« Reply #89 on: January 01, 2013, 04:48:04 am »

Lets just say that the feature is rather transparent.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8