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Author Topic: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)  (Read 32810 times)

Runic86

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Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« on: April 29, 2010, 09:09:09 am »

I was wondering about the fact that in hell there are infinite demons.
I found it to be kind of unbalanced. First of all, where would them stay? And second: it's possible that each and every one of them is a killing-machine?
I think that there should be a shinking of hell, mainly reducing their numbers, and adding lesser demons, i mean, not everybody is the boss down there, right?

Mantaining a high level of difficulty, creating hordes of lesser demons (=cannon fodder) and demonic skeletons (=kind of less fodder) guided by powered up clowns should be a lot of fun (in the non-DF way, or maybe the DF way)
Adding artifact sealed down hell can make a nice addition to adventure mode too, imagine venturing alone down there XD
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riznar

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2010, 09:19:28 am »

No actually.

In the other thread I mentioned it would take over 4000 forts to conquer hell in a pocket world. At 1 fort/day I think it appropriately epic that it would be a 13 year project to do so.

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KillerClowns

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2010, 09:22:32 am »

When you open hell, you are supposed to die.  In the string dump, the system names for opening Hell and discovering the demons are, respectively, "ENDGAME_EVENT_1" and "ENDGAME_EVENT_2."  It wasn't meant to be a challenge, it wasn't meant to be rewarding, it was meant to be certain doom.  It's just two small things.  First, Tarn Adams can't quite bring himself to make something truly impossible, so he goes with "nigh impossible" so we can make a heroic last stand and don't feel cheated.  Second, we're Dwarf Fortress players, and doing things that were meant to be impossible, for no more reward than proving once and for all that we can, is what we do.
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"A rational enemy is better than a foolish friend." -Arab proverb

HmH

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2010, 09:59:41 am »

When you open anything in DF, you are supposed to have your FPS above zero. Hell shouldn't be an exception.

PopeRichardCorey

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 10:02:18 am »

adding lesser demons, i mean, not everybody is the boss down there, right?

That's just it, my friend...  These ARE the lesser demons.  These are the ones that the vastly more powerful bosses send out to conquer the world.  The bosses wouldn't bother going out where they might be killed by having their heads pinched in half.
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And when you build your fortress walls from the bones of skeletal elephants, slain my weapons forged from melted goblin plunder, fed on cattle that graze on grass that blinks.  Then, you will know dwarfdom.

KillerClowns

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2010, 10:07:57 am »

According to my studies of the raws, there are indeed greater and lesser demons, carrying the [UNIQUE_DEMON] and [DEMON] tags, respectively.  Greater demons are "twisted into humanoid shape" and capable of escaping hell and leading nations.  I'm not sure if there's any physical power difference, though.  They're the same size, at any rate.
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"A rational enemy is better than a foolish friend." -Arab proverb

Dave Mongoose

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 10:10:42 am »

Putting "SPOILERS!!!" in the title is a bit redundant if the title also mentions hell and demons...

When you open hell, you are supposed to die.

I agree with this^

In the early versions before the z-axis was added (23a and before), digging out even one piece of adamantine would doom your fortress and there was nothing you could do about it (see the wiki page).

Digging too deep is meant to be game over: 'Losing is Fun!', etc.

If you like, you can imagine Hell as a portal to the demon dimension: even the weakest of demons that come through are killing-machines compared to anything in the real world, and there's nothing to stop more of them coming through.

As for the FPS problems: the huge FPS hit comes when you wall-up Hell to keep the demons in - this makes their pathfinding very angry, so just be a dwarf and face them!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 10:12:42 am by Dave Mongoose »
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Psieye

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 10:20:24 am »

I found it to be kind of unbalanced.
As others have pointed out, what you wanted was some endgame military challenge for you to overcome. That hasn't been coded in yet - you'll get it when Toady gets round to the Army Arc. Hell is not meant to be (though there is a slim chance you can) survivable. You could I suppose, set up a survival mode challenge and see how long you can hold back Hell while you try to cart off as much Adamantine as possible.
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

Dakkan

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 10:27:10 am »

Devoting about 100 dwarves to military and several well trained and placed seige operators can do fairly well against hell actually. Not everyone likes playing with that many dwarves however.
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Psieye

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 10:49:45 am »

It's the sustainability issue - assuming no 'immortal' demons have been gen'd and also assuming you don't build some 50 Z-level maze filled with spike traps that are constantly pushed up and down. So if you go for a conventional standoff with 100 dwarves with good siege support, then you can hold out... for how long? Your dwarves need to eat, sleep and drink. Invaders will still come in from above, as will titans and forgotten beasts. While well-geared and well-trained dwarves can handle the physical aspect of the war of attrition, how do they handle the biochemical aspect when we can't make (armoured) haz-mat suits? Eventually unless you wall yourself off, your dwarves will succumb to the infinite and tireless reinforcements of hell's legions.

But yes, being able to survive for a significant amount of time thanks to due preparations is a worthy feat. Doing it long enough to wall off Hell's map edges and pits just steps it up.
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

FreakyCheeseMan

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2010, 11:35:41 am »

Now there's an idea, for when fortress items don't get strewn all over the map at abandonment.

Breah hell, and hold off the demons as long as possible while mining, refining and forging as much adamantine as possible- then wall off the exit (to the surface), but store all of the adamantine in an ornately-constructed tomb/adventurer supply depot unconnected to the main fort.

For added points, make it only reachable through the underworld, and build a tiny "Staircase" fortress nearby.
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What do you really need to turn Elves into Dwarves? Mutation could make them grow a beard; insanity effects could make them evil-minded, aggressive, tree-hating cave dwellers, and instant, full necrosis of their lower legs could make them short.

Dakkan

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2010, 11:55:15 am »

From what I've heard after the initial wave of demons they migrate onto the map at about the same rate as surface creatures. You could make pretty good use of the schedule system and keep maybe 20 or so dwarves stationed at any one time, even less depending on the rate that new demons appear.

But yes, some luck is still needed for some less nasty demons to be generated.
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Arkenstone

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2010, 11:59:47 am »

Why cart off adamantine?  Mine Slade!!! (I heard there was a bug involving carving ramps you could do this with)
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FreakyCheeseMan

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 12:00:26 pm »

Christ, are you dwarves or are you elves? If you think Hell has too many demons, then youkill them till the population reaches an acceptable number.
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What do you really need to turn Elves into Dwarves? Mutation could make them grow a beard; insanity effects could make them evil-minded, aggressive, tree-hating cave dwellers, and instant, full necrosis of their lower legs could make them short.

Psieye

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Re: Do you think hell has too many demons? (SPOILERS!!!)
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2010, 12:11:26 pm »

But yes, some luck is still needed for some less nasty demons to be generated.
Hmm actually there's a question - are the demon types constant within a world? So if you breach hell in one fortress, can you breach hell in another fortress in the same world and be confident that the types of demons you'll get is the same as in your first?
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.
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