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[Trukkle]

quote:Originally posted by Zurai:
<STRONG>

Please, do some cursory reading into what the poster you're responding to said before dismissing his statement as impossible.</STRONG>

I'd seen the "They do their job and close, are you sure?" gist twice in the thread and want to make sure people, and the OP, reaslise that there are some now that remain open, and there have been in the past (Depending on how long ago VAC noticed the 'cheating')

I wasn't flaming anyone in particular, just firmly stating a fact and stopping people from dismissing this out of hand.

OP:Refer VAC/Valve to dwarf foreman, if you were using it.

[Ratha]

If he was running a memory hacking utility for DF, isnt the same memory also then used when playing counterstrike? Playing any online game with a memory hacking program open should be pretty apparently a no-no in todays games with hacking protection. I dont think a memory hacking program would be specifically limited to DF in that memory does get used for a lot of different things.

I suspect that VAC detected either the program in memory, or that something was trying to actively read or alter the memory used by counterstrike.

I am curious if "DF Utilities" is the name of the program he was running, or if he was running random DF editing programs, and if thats the case, posting their names here would be infinitely more helpful since many people who are very familiar with those programs could likely tell you which most likely caused the problem, and would let people know to be careful when using the said program.

[qwertyuiopas]

Actually, each program gets it's own section of memory that is isolated(by windows) from the rest. I think.

You have to go through windows to get access to DF's memory.
So DF utilities are limited, and from teleport.exe's source, it searches by window name.

Either steam may be doing something illegal and scanning your whole computer without permission, they hid a thing that says that by installing, they can, or you actually cheated, or, most likely, your brother's pet ferret did it.

[RubberDuckofDoom]

quote:Originally posted by briktal:
<STRONG>

Yes, blackmail is the answer.</STRONG>

No, a boycott is.

Blackmail would be you threatening to lie about them doing that to you and saying that if they don't give you money or games for nothing you'll spread that rumour.

Referring to a boycott attempt as blackmail is ridiculous.

[briktal]

quote:Originally posted by RubberDuckofDoom:
<STRONG>

No, a boycott is.

Blackmail would be you threatening to lie about them doing that to you and saying that if they don't give you money or games for nothing you'll spread that rumour.

Referring to a boycott attempt as blackmail is ridiculous.</STRONG>

The suggestion was to say "Unban me or I will trash your name wherever I can," not "Unban me or I won't buy anything else from you."

Additionally, with blackmail, the threat generally would be something you could otherwise legally do ("Give me $5000, Mayor, or I'll tell them about that embarassing thing you did 5 years ago").  Otherwise it'd be extortion ("Give me $5000, Mayor, or I'll break your legs and burn your house down").

[Anfold]

The problem that I have with these anti-hack utilities is that you can be told that "We caught you cheating." And that's it.  You can't argue back, you can't even ask for the specific case report.  It's like if the police busted down your front door and took you to jail because one of them didn't like the way that you looked, and thought that it was suspicious.

Also, even though it is clearly illegal (remember the Sony Root Kit?)companies will install software on your computer to monitor what you are doing without your knowing consent. Not too long ago Microsoft did this with their security validation tool, which is capable of tracking your mouse movementsand called it a security update.  Soon, all software will be spyware, constantly reporting what you do with it to whoever owns the copyright, in an attempt to enhance your customer experience .  Satellite companies are capable of monitoring what you watch, and so are digital cable companies.  Have you noticed how a lot more channels have commercials airing at the same time?

Once, (in the US that is) privacy was considered a right.  Things like keeping track of what you purchase would have been considered illegal. Now, many online sites do just that, and hide the fact within an obtusely written EULA.  Which is a legal and binding contract, not an outline.  From what I have read, Valve and most other companies need to update their EULAs because most have a certain little clause in them that states that the EULA may be changed at any time at the companies discretion without notification.  You could definitely get Valve into legal trouble because they do not explicitly dictate the monitoring methods used to detect cheating, which means that they could (note the could, I am not saying that they are) record your ISP logins and your windows account information, heck they could keep track of anything that they wish and say that its all an attempt to ensure that you aren't cheating.  You argue against it, and they point out that you agreed to it, even if the EULA had changed since you  had "signed it."  

If the EULA wasn't a legal and binding contract, then any attempt to enforce it (especially the disabling of the software, or the monitoring of your use of it)would in fact be illegal and a violation of your privacy rights (in the US.)  

I believe that in Holland (or was it Denmark) that Microsoft was fined and had to recall thousands of copies of vista because of the DRMs present in the version of Media Player that violated that nations privacy laws.

My point, and the on topic point, is that these companies have no actual right to take away access that you paid for without giving at least some proof of the incident, and a reply other than VAC2 does not make mistakes.  That's what a certain religious entity said about Galileo, and we all know how that turned out.

[briktal]

quote:Originally posted by Anfold:
<STRONG>The problem that I have with these anti-hack utilities is that you can be told that "We caught you cheating." And that's it.  You can't argue back, you can't even ask for the specific case report.  It's like if the police busted down your front door and took you to jail because one of them didn't like the way that you looked, and thought that it was suspicious.

Also, even though it is clearly illegal (remember the Sony Root Kit?)companies will install software on your computer to monitor what you are doing without your knowing consent. Not too long ago Microsoft did this with their security validation tool, which is capable of tracking your mouse movementsand called it a security update.  Soon, all software will be spyware, constantly reporting what you do with it to whoever owns the copyright, in an attempt to enhance your customer experience .  Satellite companies are capable of monitoring what you watch, and so are digital cable companies.  Have you noticed how a lot more channels have commercials airing at the same time?

Once, (in the US that is) privacy was considered a right.  Things like keeping track of what you purchase would have been considered illegal. Now, many online sites do just that, and hide the fact within an obtusely written EULA.  Which is a legal and binding contract, not an outline.  From what I have read, Valve and most other companies need to update their EULAs because most have a certain little clause in them that states that the EULA may be changed at any time at the companies discretion without notification.  You could definitely get Valve into legal trouble because they do not explicitly dictate the monitoring methods used to detect cheating, which means that they could (note the could, I am not saying that they are) record your ISP logins and your windows account information, heck they could keep track of anything that they wish and say that its all an attempt to ensure that you aren't cheating.  You argue against it, and they point out that you agreed to it, even if the EULA had changed since you  had "signed it."  

If the EULA wasn't a legal and binding contract, then any attempt to enforce it (especially the disabling of the software, or the monitoring of your use of it)would in fact be illegal and a violation of your privacy rights (in the US.)  

I believe that in Holland (or was it Denmark) that Microsoft was fined and had to recall thousands of copies of vista because of the DRMs present in the version of Media Player that violated that nations privacy laws.

My point, and the on topic point, is that these companies have no actual right to take away access that you paid for without giving at least some proof of the incident, and a reply other than VAC2 does not make mistakes.  That's what a certain religious entity said about Galileo, and we all know how that turned out.</STRONG>

Try to make sure M$ doesn't overcharge you for TSR filled betas either.

[Armok]

I have been monitoring this thread for a while, and this is totally outrageous!
From what I have understood, any company could in principle change the EULA to saying you donate everything you have to that company, and whit good enough lawyers get away whit making millions homeless!
Also, blackmail is legal!
And it doesn't help I don't live in the USA, these things are international.
The only thing stopping Microsoft, for example, for literally and in the real world legally taking over the world is the it would just collapse all economies simultaneously so nobody would care!

I really hate humans.

[Jreengus]

quote:
I really hate humans.[/QB]

Finnaly someone who agrees with me, when the reckoning comes I shall spare you.

[Armok]

quote:Originally posted by thatguyyaknow:
<STRONG>
Finnaly someone who agrees with me, when the reckoning comes I shall spare you.</STRONG>

First of all I am the God of blood, and there is no way you could POSSIBLY have insulted me more than to call me human.  :mad:
Second humanity is mine to destroy, in a much more horrible way than you could ever have imagined, and you will be the first!

Had you not insulted me I also would have been glad for some agreement.
[/of topic]

[Anfold]

quote:Originally posted by Ltheb:
<STRONG>
Does this mean a company could scan your Hard Disk for programs they don't like </STRONG>

Its a fact that there were "virus scans" and other "cleaning utilities" that were designed to disable a competitors software.  Unsurprisingly, this was found out and has since been made illegal. Do a bit of research about computer privacy laws and ethics, you will be surprised at what certain (mostly dead) companies thought they could get away with.

Recent example:  Starforce (an incredibly buggy, possibly CD-damaging, but effective copy protection software) ran hidden software that detected the use of   CD emulators like Alchohol 120, Damian Tools and Virtual drive.  All of which are legal as long as you own the original disk.  Just like playing a SNES rom is legal as long as you have the original cartridge.  I think that the site Boycot-Starforce may still be active, though I haven't checked in a while.  The backlash from disabling these perfectly legal softwares (which may be used in an illegal way, Just like P2P) caused the company to put out a removal tool for their originally uninstallable software.  

And you know what's the best part about all this copy protection going on? Games that are sold without copy protection tend to outsell the competitors, as playing without the original media in the drive tends to reduce the required resources needed by a drastic amount.  Especially since all the information is on your hard drive anyway.

Their are two competing factions out on their today in the world of computers, those who want absolute freedom to do what they want with their computers (hackers, smart-users, anybody who uses UNIX) and those who want to protect their profits and copyrights.  I have no problem with either side, and I happen to support valve 100%, I just bought two copies of the Orange box, one as a gift and one for myself. Both on the 360, so don;t think that I am some sort of digital anarchist, but i think that it is important that people know about these things, kind of like I thimk that its important to know your rights (next time a cop wants to search your vehicle, tell him no. When they ask about where you're going, what you're doing out this late etc. etc. go ahead and plead the 5th.  If they have no probable cause and you get arrested, chances are you can sue them.)
Its important for the people with power to protect their rights and property, but that is no reason for you to lie down and let them toll right over your rights and privileges.
*note: check your local constitution/bill of rights if not in the US.  I don't want to get some poor Chinese kid killed.
[/rant]  (I hope)

Edited for a bit of redundency

[ December 18, 2007: Message edited by: Anfold ]

[Core Xii]

quote:Originally posted by Anfold:
<STRONG>All of which are legal as long as you own the original disk.  Just like playing a SNES rom is legal as long as you have the original cartridge.</STRONG>

A common misconception, this claim is not true. When you buy a software product you only licence it and more often than not the licence prohibits you from making any copies, especially as is the case with console cartridges. Check Nintendo's site, they have an official stance on that.

There may be some laws that say you can make private backup copies, I don't know much about those though.

The point you should've been making is that there's nothing illegal about image mounting software by themselves. They just mount images.

[Anfold]

Archival law states that you may back up any software/hardware that you own, as long as you do not distribute it without the written consent of the copyright holder.  If you don't believe me, let me know and I'll pull up the law itself.  Now, downloading the ROM, and if the prosecution/plaintiff can prove that you downloaded it (which is nearly impossible, you could merely state that it was backed up a long time ago, and have since sold/lost the equipment) is illegal.  Regardless of Nintendo's official policy, the licensing (you must license a game to put it on your console, that how devs make money) has run out on most SNES, NES, and N64 games have since run out, and Nintendo has no right to say anything about them.  There is a project out there that is relicensing old software in an attempt to prevent the downloads of certain games, especially those which a company feels that it may continue to make a profit on.  

The world of copyright law is anything but clear though, especially with international laws being as about as useful as a pointy stick in a gun fight.  If you think that it might, possibly could be illegal, don't do it.  In fact, even if you think that it is perfectly legal, unless you have a lawyer watching your back saying, yep its okay.  Don't steal if you can help it, but I know for a fact that many people will emulate games that they don't own simply because they are impossible to find through any other means.  I don't support theft by any means, but I also want people to stop lying down and doing what they're told simply because the other guy has more money than you.

[Core Xii]

quote:Originally posted by Anfold:
<STRONG>Regardless of Nintendo's official policy, the licensing has run out on most SNES, NES, and N64 games have since run out, and Nintendo has no right to say anything about them.</STRONG>

Licenses don't "run out" just like that, copyrights take decades to expire in most countries. The NES is only ~20 years old.

Also, according to Wikipedia, "in the U.S. it has been illegal since 1983 for a user to create their own backups of video game ROMs onto other cartridges" because "ROM media was not subject to the same volatility as magnetic media (for which the law was created)"

[Anfold]

Regardless of wikipedia, there have been court cases where it was considered legal to make a backup... but this may be a states right kind of deal.  As for the licenses, any game not made by Nintendo is not a copyright of Nintendo, the games were licensed to Nintendo.  Otherwise the Final Fantasy series would have never been released on the Sony Playstation, and multiple console titles would not exist. Copyrights (trademarks?) have to be renewed, the current system of 80 years  after the death of the holder does not apply to companies. Ol' Mickey is the copyright of Walt Disney the man, not the corporation.

EDIT: I'm going to see if I can find some of the cases I know about, but looking for them is going to take a while.  Most likely the cases were overturned into todays laws, and I am running on bad information.  I think this discussion should be moved to another thread now, as it is off topic.

[ December 18, 2007: Message edited by: Anfold ]