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[Virex]

On the topic of research, I always found EotFS's research system convulted and hard to grasp what exactly led to what (even thoughb it was realy cool). A tree-like structure like in Alpha Centauri would probably go a long way to making that part easier for new players and generaly more streamlined. Also, such a chart would give an quick view of everything that's been baned and the derivative technologies as well.

It seems you're going the same way as EotFS with ship movement, right? Would be interesting if you'd instead go with the model used in the Dune books, the Highliner's guild. Space travel would be a lot slower, since you'd basicly have to wait for a highliner to pass into your system (though inter-system travle could probably done with conventional engines) and there'd be another angle for political stuff to happen (if the guild likes you, they might divert a highliner to your system for the right price...). It would probably be best not to base the Highliner guild on a resource only found on one planet, lest game-breaking events crop up (though a planet similar to Byzantium II in EotFS could work. Do anything funny to the main resource for interstellar travel and everyone's going to gut you. )

One thing I found lacking in EotFS was orbital construction. One could space stations, but they only served as defence platforms, not as industrial centres. I could see some of the more advanced resources require zero-gravity conditions for production.

[Boksi]

On research: One idea I have been fermenting in my brain on such a subject is the Tech Blob. Now, the original EotFS grouped things into three categories: Physics, Biology and Psychology.

Imagine a circle divided into three parts and label each part with one of those groups. This circle is the Blob, and it represents the sum of your scientists' knowledge. As their knowledge grows, so does the Blob. If you only focus on physics, the physics part of the blob will grow while the other parts stay still.

Then we have actual, applied technologies. These are represented as free-floating nodes whose location depends on what group(s) they belong to and how complex they are; the Super-Mega Doomray might be located in physics, for example, but much further from the center than the Minor Doomfizzler. These technologies will also have prerequisites, but there should be multiple possible ones. For example, to research the Super-Mega Doomray, you must fulfill one or more of the following conditions:
1 - Research the Minor Doomfizzler.
B - Research the Multisinuous Cacophonium, which has researching the Super-Mega Doomray as one of its own prerequisites.
III - Have the Blob engulf it so completely that the Super-Mega Doomray node is always at least forty whateverunits from its edges.

The interplay between the Blob and the technologies is simpler: The more knowledge you possess in the relevant fields, the easier it is to research that technology, so it's much easier to research a tech inside the Blob than outside it, but it's hardly impossible either. When you research a technology, the Blob expands along a line between the technology and the Blob's center, so if you constantly research technologies outside the Blob it'll end up rather spiky. Conversely, if you research technologies inside the Blob the Blobmatter will simply shunt the nearby Blobmatter upwards, creating a bubble.

I think the Blob is a rather realistic system but I'm afraid that since I'm writing this at 0:40 it won't make any sense to you. Do tell me what you think about it.

[de5me7]

Hmm this looks A for awsome. The only thing i could contribute is creative / instructional writing, but i expect most people could do this. e.g. unit descriptions / help files etc.

[Lap]

On Research:

EotFS wasn't really that different from tree systems except that it had the worst documentation of any game of it's type. There was essentially no way for the player to realize what technologies led to what, in no small part due to the technology help pages being written as if they were one of your citizens writing about it. Even with heavy modding of the help files, there was still no good way to visualize what was going on.

At the minimum I will do something similar to the tried and true civ technology tree method that is seen in most games. I will be including a visual map of the technologies as well.

I haven't put a lot of thought into the research system yet. Here are some of the systems I've seen for researching:

Tree Based
---------------

Blind Research: Players choose from only a few very broad fields to research, with breakthroughs giving random techs from that field (of an approximate tech level).

Semi-Blind: Same as above, but players get to choose between a few randomly chosen options when a breakthrough is made.

Standard: Players pick exactly which techs they want to research.

There's also the issue of whether to allow players to research multiple things at the same time. Allowing simultaneous research tends to work best when you play with mostly blind research, otherwise smart players will just research one thing at a time unless there are significant penalties for focusing.

As for "the blob" method, I've seen such a system used for things like opposing elemental magic.  The downside to this type of thing is how easily it can trap players into specializing too much. Players get incentives to go down one path and usually, it becomes more and more profitable for them to just rush down the path they've taken. This leads to some pretty lame strategies and makes it less likely for players to choose interesting mixes of techs. Even if I could balance such a system, it would still trap new players if there aren't serious and readily apparent penalties for specializing. It's hard to see how badly you've pigeon holed yourself by specializing until dozens of turns later when it's too late (like when you realize your enemy is using tech on the opposing end of the tree and it won't be easily countered with whatever path you've taken).

I'm not throwing out such a system and I like the idea of having applied techs and pure techs. However, I am not going to take any research option lightly and I will be extremely cautious before implementing any of the more exotic research ideas because of how carefully balanced they will need to be. This is an area where pretty much everyone can help since everyone has played a game that has some sort of tech tree.

Space Travel

Spacing Guild

I never considered having to make players wait for the space bus before. It seems like an interesting idea, but it would raise a lot of questions. How rare would they be? How expensive would they be? Do you let players determine their destination once they have troops loaded? Are their routes readily apparent to the player? How would the player gain or lose reputation with the guild? Are there any other benefits the guild could give a player? Will they refuse to transport you to certain places? Would other players be given an option to pay the guild so that they don't transport you somewhere?
 

Here's a little variant on the whole guild idea:

The guild has a very limited amount of ships and will only accept the highest X number of bids for their services at any given turn. Over time this fleet would grow to compensate for the increased need for space travel. In this variant you could even throw in a restriction that only the guild can transport between systems (make up whatever reason you want for this). Player's who donate or sell ships to the guild would receive some sort of discount or increased standing with the guild.

Spice type resource

I have been thinking about adding some sort of resource that is absolutely essential to space travel. In EotFS the singularity resource wasn't a fuel, but a component required in all interstellar ships. It would be interesting adding some sort of rare space fuel type resource to the game.

This space fuel resource would have it's rarity determined by the mapper. In one universe, that resource might only be found on a single planet with Byzantium style no combat rules on it. In another galaxy it might just be a semi rare resource that is freely fought over by players.

Current Vision for Space Travel

One thing I am certain of is that I want space ships and travel to be both rare and expensive (at least in the early and mid stages of the game). I'd like to have players start the game with either a very small transport fleet or no ships at all. Players will initially rely on their starting fleet or on having to hire a ride from the spacing guild. Eventually players will be able to research the technology to make their own ships, but they will still be expensive enough that many players would still focus on using the spacing guild since there isn't such a large initial tech and resource investment.


Space Stations

I think it would be very interesting to have many different resources that can be gained in space. None of these features would have their own planet map and I'm still going to stick to a 1 "planet" map per system rule for now. These features would appear in a list when the planet was selected. If it had something like an asteroid field a player with sufficent technolgy could build a mining operation there that would transport more metal or whatever back to the surface. These could be destroyed by invading fleets or captured. GalCiv and Sins of a Solar Empire had great examples of space stations and other space features. Allowing space stations and all sorts of orbital projects in the game should open up a wealth of possibilities.

Creative Writing

As much as I love to write, there will probably be so much text in this game that it would be foolish of me to write all of it on my own. I've written all the documentation for my previous projects and spent days writing lengthy manuals when I should have been adding features or fixing bugs. Coding is a lot rarer skill set and I would rather use my time there.

I could really use help writing descriptions for units, planets, random provinces, technologies, etc. To make the game intuitive there will need to be a lot of rollover/mouseover text, and that means a lot of writing. There will also need to eventually be written tutorials, manuals, and maybe even a wiki. Basically, don't count yourself out. I'm at B12 because there's a certain level of maturity and intelligence here and I trust that most users would be able to contribute something meaningful to the project.

Combat Tester

I've had some requests to see an example of how some of the code is written so I've decided to release the combat tester. Just extract this to some directory and run the .bat file.

The standard test is 4 militia versus a single battle tank. You can add more troops of change what is in each army by editing the units.lua file.

http://www.filefront.com/16405471/CombatTester.rar

Game Name

I have put pretty little effort into thinking up a name for this. My initial idea was Dark Skies, but I kind of already used that name for a mod for Garry's Mod, not that I couldn't usurp my own name. I haven't even begun to really brainstorm and I haven't received any suggestions except one...

Speaking of title suggestions, Davion decided to both suggest a name and create a splash screen for it.



I like how simple the name is and how it still connects back to its EotFS roots. There is the issue of it conflicting with the subtitle of a current game though (Titans of Steel:Warring Suns).

[Virex]

On Research:

EotFS wasn't really that different from tree systems except that it had the worst documentation of any game of it's type. There was essentially no way for the player to realize what technologies led to what, in no small part due to the technology help pages being written as if they were one of your citizens writing about it. Even with heavy modding of the help files, there was still no good way to visualize what was going on.

At the minimum I will do something similar to the tried and true civ technology tree method that is seen in most games. I will be including a visual map of the technologies as well.

I haven't put a lot of thought into the research system yet. Here are some of the systems I've seen for researching:

Tree Based
---------------

Blind Research: Players choose from only a few very broad fields to research, with breakthroughs giving random techs from that field (of an approximate tech level).

Semi-Blind: Same as above, but players get to choose between a few randomly chosen options when a breakthrough is made.

Standard: Players pick exactly which techs they want to research.

There's also the issue of whether to allow players to research multiple things at the same time. Allowing simultaneous research tends to work best when you play with mostly blind research, otherwise smart players will just research one thing at a time unless there are significant penalties for focusing.

I was actually thinking of combining the two options. Fundamental research could be completely or almost completely blind, while applied researchers would come up with all kinds of ideas based upon known fundamental research over time. You can then chose what ideas are to be developed further. So for example, you put funds in optics. Some time later you gain stimulated light amplification, meta-materials and optic computing. Based upon these fundamental breakthroughs, your engineers come up with "Laser Cutters", "Laser Welders", "Continuous Beam Lasers", "Pulsed Lasers", a new fundamental field, being "Meta-materials", "Passive Radar Cloaking", "Optic Circuits", "Holographic Data Storage" and "Distributed Fiber Computers". You can then chose which of these applied fields you're going to research next, with most of them giving direct benefits and a select few being needed for other applications (Electron microscopes, for example, would boost the research in some fields for example, while not giving you any other direct benefits. Technologies like these could even be needed to keep up with technological developments, with some researchers lamenting how they need better equipment from time to time.)

Something else I've been thinking about is that labs are usually overly general in most games. It would be interesting to have the option to specialize labs in a specific field, for a bonus. So you could keep a lot of general labs which give you a lot of flexibility, or you could specialize most of your labs which would improve your research rate in selected fields, but to switch research to different fields, you're going to have to retool your labs and get some new researchers, which takes extra time and money. Retooling (or "uptooling", adding extra capacity to an existing lab) would be cheapest for fields close to it's current field. Retooling a chemical lab to a materials lab would be way cheaper then retooling a biology lab to a materials lab.

Space Travel

Spacing Guild

I never considered having to make players wait for the space bus before. It seems like an interesting idea, but it would raise a lot of questions. How rare would they be? How expensive would they be? Do you let players determine their destination once they have troops loaded? Are their routes readily apparent to the player? How would the player gain or lose reputation with the guild? Are there any other benefits the guild could give a player? Will they refuse to transport you to certain places? Would other players be given an option to pay the guild so that they don't transport you somewhere?
 

Here's a little variant on the whole guild idea:

The guild has a very limited amount of ships and will only accept the highest X number of bids for their services at any given turn. Over time this fleet would grow to compensate for the increased need for space travel. In this variant you could even throw in a restriction that only the guild can transport between systems (make up whatever reason you want for this). Player's who donate or sell ships to the guild would receive some sort of discount or increased standing with the guild.

I was thinking of combining the league from EotFS with the spacing guild and giving them standard routes. So every month or so, the liner from Sri Metsa to Verdilon would pass through Leikan, which is your capitol planet, so you know when to expect new goods for trading and when you can send your troops. Some systems would en up as hubs, where multiple lines cross and thus there would be a lot of economic activity. Perhaps combat in these parts would need to be regulated by imperial ministries to prevent people from camping hubs and sniping everyone that's comming to transfer (Or that could get you in trouble with the spacing guild who would promptly glass one of your planets if you keep doing that). A ticket on a standard line would be pretty cheap, though it depends on how dangerous the area you're traveling through is and what goods or units you're hauling. If you want to get somewhere fast, you could order a private jump at a steep premium and hauling illegal goods could be rather expensive as well.

Another thing I was thinking about is that though interstellar transport would be a monopoly of the guild, it wouldn't be inaccesable to players. Just the technology needed for it would be illegitimised by the guild. You could try to research it and risk the wrath of the guild (and possibly overtake them if you're doing well enough), or you could hope to find an abandoned liner in a ruin or something, which could either be used to the annoyance of the guild (so be ready to bribe them), donated to them for lots of goodwill or taken apart and reverse engineered for even more fun.

Game Name

I have put pretty little effort into thinking up a name for this. My initial idea was Dark Skies, but I kind of already used that name for a mod for Garry's Mod, not that I couldn't usurp my own name. I haven't even begun to really brainstorm and I haven't received any suggestions except one...

Speaking of title suggestions, Davion decided to both suggest a name and create a splash screen for it.



I like how simple the name is and how it still connects back to its EotFS roots. There is the issue of it conflicting with the subtitle of a current game though (Titans of Steel:Warring Suns).

How about "Empire of a Thousand Suns". Not as short and catchy, but as far as I know it doesn't coincide with anything

[Davion]

Stylin' with map styles:

_{Original size is something like 2000x1000. A quick work in progress shot, haven't put a lot of detail in it beyond the mountain ranges and some forest brushwork.}

I wanted to try my hand at developing a tactical map that one might find in an opulent House war room. I think it's a good start, though it might end up being a bit too busy for gameplay purposes. I am also exploring antique map designs, but don't have anything to post at the moment in regards to that.

[ductape]

what software did you use to maker this map? its very nice

[Davion]

I made it with Photoshop CS2.

[Virex]

As for the map, could you try your hand at filling in some provinces, just to see how it'd look in-game? Also it looks like the east and west side of the map don't line up. Is it meant as a territory map, or a planet map?

[Davion]

Haven't had a lot of time today to mess around with the map, but I managed to get some borders and stuff in as a test:

Spoiler: Map with Provinces (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Map with Provinces and Color Coding (click to show/hide)

Also made it so the east/west edges are seamless, hooray.

[Lap]

I wouldn't worry too much about actually drawing in a provinces or borders for now simply because they might need to get changed depending on how gameplay ends up getting paced (Might only need 10 provinces per planet instead of 20  or 30, who knows). Though they do look pretty...

[eerr]

Hmmm, I was about to suggest for tech, but my idea was way too complicated.

I think, random events for each empire would add a great deal of flavor.

Like say, one empire consists of buccaneers and scallywags. Other empires, Especially one vulnerable empire, attract raids from that empire.

Clobber the pirate nation, and the raids come to a standstill. The pirate civ might gain significant advantage from stealing certain Tech from others.

In the land of deserts, water could easily become an issue, climate change has dried the river of many minor cities, causing mass-migration...


These would add flavor as to "whats going on" in the cities of a certain player.

[Virex]

Nah I was just asking for the provinces to see if the map would work with them, not to fill them in already. The map with the coloured provinces looks realy awesome, though I'd watch the colouring to avoid having green drown in forest. Depending on the colour scheme of other planets, other house colours may drown as well, but green is the most likely, since forests and grasslands are the most common. Perhaps desaturating the province before colouring it would prevent a lot of problems?

Edit: both problems become a lot less when zoomed in further though, so they may be no problems in the final map.

[Davion]

I wouldn't worry too much about actually drawing in a provinces or borders for now simply because they might need to get changed depending on how gameplay ends up getting paced (Might only need 10 provinces per planet instead of 20  or 30, who knows). Though they do look pretty...

Yeah, that's why I didn't go overboard and start placing provinces everywhere. No sense going through all that work when it will no doubt be changed.

Trying to come up with some prototype graphics for the various buildings on the map, going to see about maybe making something 3D in Maya or Sketchup or something as a base for the static image or whatever. At work I was also sketching out some UI layouts and hopefully I can get something there at some point.

[Virex]

I think it's best to stay in the spirit of the staff map, a bit like Risk, using a small set of what look like plastic (or metal or whatever) figures for a batallion. small soldiers for infantry, a tank for panzer battalions, small aircraft on a pedestall for aircraft, etc.