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Author Topic: Stranger Moods!  (Read 12369 times)

KhazâdAimênu

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2010, 02:05:02 pm »

I have to admit I'm kind of confused by some people's reactions to this. We compete to find the most horrifically creative ways to kill invaders. We kill elves just because they're elves. We slaughter nobles because they're irritating. We try to find every game loophole to exploit sentient beings. We laugh at all of this. But dwarf-sex with metaphysically questionable consent is just a bridge too far? I can't say that it's necessarily a great idea, either from a game-mechanic or moral standpoint, but it brings up some interesting issues, and it's by far not the worst thing someone's suggested.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2010, 02:06:17 pm »

I have to admit I'm kind of confused by some people's reactions to this. We compete to find the most horrifically creative ways to kill invaders. We kill elves just because they're elves. We slaughter nobles because they're irritating. We try to find every game loophole to exploit sentient beings. We laugh at all of this. But dwarf-sex with metaphysically questionable consent is just a bridge too far? I can't say that it's necessarily a great idea, either from a game-mechanic or moral standpoint, but it brings up some interesting issues, and it's by far not the worst thing someone's suggested.

Fuck the bridges! We're dwarves!
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TigerPlushie

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2010, 02:21:28 pm »

I have to admit I'm kind of confused by some people's reactions to this. We compete to find the most horrifically creative ways to kill invaders. We kill elves just because they're elves. We slaughter nobles because they're irritating. We try to find every game loophole to exploit sentient beings. We laugh at all of this. But dwarf-sex with metaphysically questionable consent is just a bridge too far? I can't say that it's necessarily a great idea, either from a game-mechanic or moral standpoint, but it brings up some interesting issues, and it's by far not the worst thing someone's suggested.

My thoughts exactly.

It just started as a joke and a discussion about other interesting moods (with were brought up, good job guys!). I still don't understand why people are so... well, I can't put it in any other words: prude... whilst they are perfectly fine with genociding their way through numerous fortresses...

Double moral much?


...well, at least I finally found a signature, that's a keeper.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 02:24:17 pm by TigerPlushie »
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Dwarf cancelled making adamantium short sword: Strange mood.
Dwarf has entered a marital trance!
...
Dwarf has claimed a bedroom.

riznar

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2010, 02:31:12 pm »

I dunno, people considering rape worse than death is nothing new. It's a very personal form of torture that's rather common.

I initially thought of the intended reaction of the mood's target as "Oh my!" rather than "EEK RAPE!"

Like the dwarf becomes a walking pheromone factory
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 03:05:59 pm by riznar »
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darkrider2

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2010, 02:37:14 pm »

what happens if the two dwarves in "mood love" are seperated by a wall or something and can't path to each other...

Also this sounds alot like the feces argument... So the question really is how far is too far?

In my opinion I think dwarf fortress is fine without the need for people to make sex jokes or poop jokes. I don't want to see it descend into an immature thing. Although feces may add yet another layer of management to an already awesome game, I see no benefit from the implementation of *giggity*.
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Ilmoran

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2010, 02:43:49 pm »

Not everyone does all the genocidal stereotypes that are all over the forums.  Expect varied reactions.

And while you may not have meant for it to sound similar to rape, the way you put it does come very close to it:

Quote
claim another dwarf of the opposite sex of his liking
Claim, and "of his liking" sound like the other person has no say in the matter.

Quote
give both dwarves a very happy thought
This just makes it worse given that the situation can be likened to rape (it's the whole "she doesn't want it, but she can't help liking it" thing that a lot of literature/movies have, and that kind of attitude can make a lot of people pissed off).

Understand that not everyone is going to be familiar with the DF concept of strange moods either.  Given that the OP just used the "Strange Mood" term, and not something like "Possessed by the Spirit of <Insert Dwarven God>" or however you want to explain it, it again sounds like the dwarf in question decided to just go take care of his urges on someone who had no choice in the matter.
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TigerPlushie

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2010, 02:46:41 pm »

I am now positively convinced that people DO NOT want to realize, that I DO NOT MEAN RAPE. It doesn't matter what I insert into the original idea, they only see this one thing, no matter what...

...and I am supposed to be the sick one here ò_ó

Riznar is one of the few who seemed to have understand what I was aiming for... ever seen the nutty professor? (the original with jerry lewis) It's essentially that. A filthy, bearded creature that only other dwarves can find appealing turns into an ultra-suave charmer with an irresistible touch. a transformation of godly proportions... albeit only temporary...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 02:52:19 pm by TigerPlushie »
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Dwarf cancelled making adamantium short sword: Strange mood.
Dwarf has entered a marital trance!
...
Dwarf has claimed a bedroom.

Ilmoran

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2010, 02:50:43 pm »

I am now positively convinced that people DO NOT want to realize, that I DO NOT MEAN RAPE. It doesn't matter what I insert into the original idea, they only see this one thing, no matter what...

I do understand that you don't mean rape; I'm trying to explain to you why it can still be interpretted that way, especially since your explanation isn't going to pop up on screen when this happens in game.  And I don't see anything that you've changed in the original post that refutes what I said, other than just declaring "this isn't rape because I said so".

I'm trying to help you improve the idea so it can be recieved better, not say "This suggestion is rape and it can't be put in!"
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TigerPlushie

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2010, 02:55:37 pm »

I am now positively convinced that people DO NOT want to realize, that I DO NOT MEAN RAPE. It doesn't matter what I insert into the original idea, they only see this one thing, no matter what...

I do understand that you don't mean rape; I'm trying to explain to you why it can still be interpretted that way, especially since your explanation isn't going to pop up on screen when this happens in game.  And I don't see anything that you've changed in the original post that refutes what I said, other than just declaring "this isn't rape because I said so".

I'm trying to help you improve the idea so it can be recieved better, not say "This suggestion is rape and it can't be put in!"

Yeh, the changes were made before you came here.

I'll change it again...

*mutter*
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Dwarf cancelled making adamantium short sword: Strange mood.
Dwarf has entered a marital trance!
...
Dwarf has claimed a bedroom.

SlipshodDorf

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2010, 02:59:51 pm »

gigolo mood - Dwarf becomes a casanova, and you get yourself a population boom as an end result. Economy doesn't apply to him.

Would probably be more widespread acceptable, but boring in comparison i suppose.

Hmm, how about some positive moods in comparison?

Something like a mood where a dwarf is super happy all the time, and being as cheery as they are, improves the moods of other dwarfs who like socializing, but lowers it for those that don't. They wouldn't accept any orders during this time, but they gain social skills as an end result.

Perhaps a paranoia mood as well, where a dwarf locks itself away from everyone, and may attack anyone that approaches (think locking themselves in their room and only coming out to sneak some food and drink). They could still work as long as nobody else is nearby them, but would constantly get interrupted if they do a task and someone gets too close to them. It could potentially be a never-ending mood.


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TigerPlushie

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2010, 03:02:41 pm »

gigolo mood - Dwarf becomes a casanova, and you get yourself a population boom as an end result. Economy doesn't apply to him.

Would probably be more widespread acceptable, but boring in comparison i suppose.

Hmm, how about some positive moods in comparison?

Something like a mood where a dwarf is super happy all the time, and being as cheery as they are, improves the moods of other dwarfs who like socializing, but lowers it for those that don't. They wouldn't accept any orders during this time, but they gain social skills as an end result.

Perhaps a paranoia mood as well, where a dwarf locks itself away from everyone, and may attack anyone that approaches (think locking themselves in their room and only coming out to sneak some food and drink). They could still work as long as nobody else is nearby them, but would constantly get interrupted if they do a task and someone gets too close to them. It could potentially be a never-ending mood.

I like em both! Might be difficult without personal rooms. He might claim one and throw the owner out. If the door gets deconstructed, he might turn berserk!
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Dwarf cancelled making adamantium short sword: Strange mood.
Dwarf has entered a marital trance!
...
Dwarf has claimed a bedroom.

Ilmoran

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2010, 03:08:37 pm »

Heh, paranoia mood would be hella annoying.

I'll reiterate what I said in an earlier comment though:  Current moods are difficult to complete the requirement of, and you get rewards from mediocre (for the possessed dwarf who makes a wooden picolo) to signifigant (the fey dwarf who makes a 500,000 dwarfbuck breastplate and becomes legendary armorer).  The moods people are suggesting tend to be all reward and no effort (except paranoia mood, which is all effort and no reward).

I think paranoia mood would be better as a modification of secretive mood, and the "Super Happy" mood sounds like it should be part of the standard interactions (I'm anti-social and I get grumpy from super-cheery people who talk to me for no reason :-p )
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KhazâdAimênu

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2010, 03:47:00 pm »

I am now positively convinced that people DO NOT want to realize, that I DO NOT MEAN RAPE. It doesn't matter what I insert into the original idea, they only see this one thing, no matter what...

...and I am supposed to be the sick one here ò_ó

I just want to clarify - while I think the reaction you've gotten is unfair, getting defensive and wounded just makes you sound immature. The way you originally phrased your suggestion, for all the reasons Ilmoran noted, sounded a lot like someone who was attempted to implement a typical, though morally questionable, male fantasy into DF. I'm not saying that that's necessarily where you're coming from, but it did kind of come off that way. That's not good. But as I said, we talk about horrible things in-game all the time (after all, we already have macabre moods), and I think this idea has some merit in terms of game mechanic, especially something more along the lines of UmmonTL's suggestion. I found the way some people were reacting excessive, because if it were anything to do with violence I doubt people would react that way. The way we're conditioned to think differently about sex and violence is troubling. And in any case, I think it's worthwhile to cultivate the ability to consider any idea dispassionately; visceral disgust, while perhaps morally justified, makes it very hard to think rationally. Is it really rape if the gods decree it, and make it so both parties want it? Is something like this worse than a possessed mood that leads to insanity and death? Interesting questions, better addressed by discussion than dismissed with a "you need help".

Personally, I think the notion of having a dwarf destined by the gods for a certain task is exciting, plus I like the idea of getting a legendary dwarf in otherwise un-moodable skills. I think I might implement it using something like the "rust" feature in 2010, though; you'd get a child with no apparent special skills, but as soon as they start doing their destined craft they level up extremely quickly. You'd have to shop them around on different jobs to see what they're good at. Instead of simply being legendary whatevers, maybe they would have some higher probability of strange mooding. There's a lot of possibilities.

That said, I do have some problems with it from a game perspective; I'm wary of it for the same reason I'm wary of implementing magic in the game. I feel like it's a step towards changing the nature of the universe DF inhabits. I've always been more of a fan of the LOTR-style fantasy world than the D&D-style fantasy world, in that it's not that different from the one we live in: different creatures, some very powerful artifacts, and very rare magic users, but otherwise similar. I've never really liked the Possessed strange mood for that reason (setting aside the whole "all that rigmarole for a cedar earring and I didn't even get a legendary craftsdwarf out of it!?" reaction). This brings up all the same issues.

Anyway, sorry for the length. Just think this is an interesting topic.
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shadowform

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2010, 03:51:23 pm »

Urist McTrainer cancels Tame War Animal: Strange Mood.
Urist McTrainer has been stricken with wanderlust!

(Urist runs off and leaves the fort.  A year or more later, they return, with the following message.)

Urist McTrainer has tamed the wild Cheetahs of the Dune of Gates!

They re-enter the fort with 3-5 animals of the specified type, split between males and females.  They can now train this animal regardless of the presence of a dungeon master.


Urist McPeasant cancels Store Item In Bin: Strange Mood.
Urist McPeasant has become an Adventurer!
(Urist grabs an axe, shield, backpack, three rations, and runs off and may or may not return years later, pack laden with coins from far-off lands and trinkets picked up on his journey, missing an ear, and carrying 9 severed wolf heads for no apparent reason.)
[EDIT] And also having become a legendary thrower.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 03:54:07 pm by shadowform »
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Q: What do you get when you take 100 clear glass windows, 1000 silver bars, 6700 gold bars, and 18,000 marble blocks?

A: A very large wall.

"Alright, here's Helltooth... Harborfence... Urist, come get GenericBlade... and you. Welcome to the Danger Room. First timers get good ol' Ballswallowed. Have fun and try not to take off your own toe."

riznar

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Re: Stranger Moods!
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2010, 03:57:15 pm »

So that's where all the engravings of animal training comes from.
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