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[zwei]

Hi!

'5' was an estimate, I admit. But the point is, once you do get a lot of keys, taking advantage of both hands on the keyboard does become interesting in my opinion.

Deathworks

We don't really have a lot of keys (see bc 3000 ad or any "serious" aircraft simulator for key hell) yet. Thank god. And the few we have should be merged anyway (five ways to designating some area to be something? several "look at this" keys? sigh!)

And besides, you still need to de-position your right hand to for any arrow targeting in main map or in designations: if you stop resting your right index finger on J-key, you might as well grab mouse which will serve much better for targeting.

[Jiri Petru]

Considering the mouse would be completely optional, why is it a problem you must sacrifice your right hand when you voluntarily decide to use it?

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Jiri Petru: I was responding to Zwei who proposed that a mixed interface was superior to a uniform interface. Thus, that would not be an optional choice but one where you are forced to switch back and forth.

Zwei: Your argument brings me back to my personal prefernces/idiosyncracies:
The mouse is not better for targetting for me, far from it.
And as I already hinted at, using the keyboard and using the mouse are completely different activities for me, so shifting my fingers along the keyboard to reach keys further right or left than the main keys is by far less of a jump then to suddenly switch to the spacial input device of the mouse.

But as I said, these are personal aspects that are likely not to affect other people. Still, they are reason enough for me to express my dislike for any forced mixed interface.

Deathworks

[Goron]

I really don't think zwei is proposing a forced mixed control scheme...
I might have missed it, but no where has he written a request for keyboard support features to be removed... Again, maybe I missed it, but I think you are mistaken.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

That starts assuming that interface needs to be one or either, just as he pointed out.

You can design "mouse-and-keyboard" interface where you do map movement, map targeting and designation-drawing by mouse but rest handled by keyboard.

Apropriate input device being used for each case is superior base design than "pure" base design.

I am basing my assumption on the above quote. I may be interpreting too much into, in which case I would hope for clarification.

Deathworks

[Goron]

Hi!

That starts assuming that interface needs to be one or either, just as he pointed out.

You can design "mouse-and-keyboard" interface where you do map movement, map targeting and designation-drawing by mouse but rest handled by keyboard.

Apropriate input device being used for each case is superior base design than "pure" base design.

I am basing my assumption on the above quote. I may be interpreting too much into, in which case I would hope for clarification.

Deathworks

I think he is referring to the 'optimized' control (i made that term up right now, so hopefully it makes sense). The interface would be designed for certain aspects to be optimally controlled via mouse and others via keyboard, but that does not mean those are the only options.
The browser you are using right now can be controlled (I assume) 100% by keyboard and/or 100% by mouse. Yet its designed in a way that the mouse will be used to navigate links and the keyboard will be used to type search terms and URLs.
So I highly doubt he seriously intended that Toady would actually go out of his way to remove control features... I've never heard of that in my life, except when support for said features becomes is a cost and the features become obsolete.

When mouse support was added for designations in DF the keyboard support was not removed, I do not see why you would expect that to change.

EDIT:
But, I will point out that such a design change would likely require keyboard shortcut modifications (which, in my opinion are necessary even with a 100% keyboard control scheme, as they are horribly inefficient right now) and would likely remove from some of the on-screen keyboard hints. But, that does not mean removal of the actual control. Referring to the web browser again, few (none?) browsers list the keyboard shortcut for the 'back' button on the interface, since most computer users delegate the control to the mouse and actively click the button. Similar changes would benefit the DF interface. No reason to show the keyboard shortcut to scroll a list if the scrolling can be achieved with the mouse (whether you like it or not, mouse scrolling is better than keyboard scrolling, if only because most computer users are more familiar with it.)

[keda]

Deathworks
"Keda: Just because something is there does not mean that it is useful and even if it is useful, there is no logical law that indicates that it is useful in all cases."

True. However I was merely trying to say that using one doesn't exclude using the other. Both can be useful, even in DF, and I think I've explained how.

"However, the quit/save thing is a genre-specific thing as this is a officially still a rogue-like. In addition, given that it is a world simulator, I personally feel that it feels right not to encourage having multiple saves."

I never thought of it as rogue-like, although I've never played those, I basically know its a kind of role playing game, while df I would say is sort of strategy/simulation game, perhaps with some RPG elements, but its definitively not fixed into a particular genre. Perhaps the adventure mode is more rogue-like, but fortress mode is far from it.


"1. If you have more than 5 keys, you will probably want to dedicate two hands to the keyboard engine. Thus, you would have constant jumping back and forth of your right hand to hit a key then move the mouse, hit a key ...
Anything you might gain from the mix is eaten up by the jumping back and forth."

Playing DF I have my right hand on the arrows and left hand for shortcuts, I only use the mouse when designating (right click, enter, right click, enter - a powerful keyboard mouse combo, or just leftclick and paint.) If you use the mouse for all those map location related tasks, then you wont need the right hand at the arrow keys - you have it on the mouse, and menus can be scrolled, so basically there is no more jumping, than otherwise.