Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8

Author Topic: Am I the only one who likes the user interface  (Read 28121 times)

Adamantine Fist

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2010, 09:54:00 pm »

and D) involve Clippy, the helpful paperclip, to tell you what to do.

It looks like you are trying to commit elven genocide! What would you like to do?

This is sooooo being sigged.


Personally, I'd have to say that the menu was indeed a daunting wall of text when I first started playing. Of course, then you get to the point where you can just hide the menu, and even the map, if you want more space. It could definitely use a well thought-out menu. And properly done mouse support could be very nice indeed. Just those two changes would probably make DF a lot more user friendly.
Logged
and D) involve Clippy, the helpful paperclip, to tell you what to do.
It looks like you are trying to commit elven genocide! What would you like to do?

blazzano

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2010, 09:59:46 pm »

Hey - 98% newbie to DF here, and having a great time (despite my computer being way too slow for it).  I've purposefully taken out some of the steepness of the learning curve by embarking my first fort on an island with no access to goblins (only my dwarf civ and elves, actually).

And from a newbie perspective, here's what I sometimes wished I could get from the interface.  And just for disclaimer purposes, there's always the possibility that there exist some interface things that I haven't discovered yet to make my life easier - ha!

For starters, I wish there was an additional optional info pane at the bottom of the screen, spanning its entire width and taking up perhaps two lines.  Rather than eat into the default 80x25, I'd rather that the game's basic size was increased to 80x27.  You would be able to remove this bottom pane with the press of a button, just as you can remove the right menu pane with [tab].  If you did, it would merely free up more space to view the world.  How it would be used, exactly, I'll list below.

And now a section by section list of interface / info display changes I'd like to see.  Put into spoiler boxes to save space:

1.  (b)uild
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2.  (d)esignate
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3.  (j)obs
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4.  (p)stockpiles
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5.  (i)Zones
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6.  z-Stocks screen
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

7.  A new screen for mass manipulation of dwarf labor
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

8.  Bottom pane use for (k) viewing
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The following is more 'personal' in that I'm probably in the extreme minority of people who dislike it:
9.  Trading liaison goods priority screen
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Logged

Urist McDepravity

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2010, 08:01:53 am »

Didn't read whole thread, so my points most likely were already stated several times.
I dont like lack of integrity in the interface.
Too often you have to leave menu and go to another to get some more information.
In particular, -q- / -v- / -t- / -k- differentiation. Having single key for all these would make it much better.
Another example - -u-, select some dorf. Now try to change his labors. Oh, obviously you cant. And you need to zoom to him in another menu first.

And, of course, military. What i really want to have is -open orders for this particular dorf- in his -v- screen. It should be same as going to -s- -p- and selecting that dorf, so i can just order him move/kill, as in 40d.
Logged

Goron

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2010, 09:14:00 am »

I may be wrong, but I assume most of the interface was implemented in order of development. As new features were added, access to said features were amended to the existing interface with no regard for 're-design'.
That is not a bad thing.
I think that is a perfectly reasonable process for an alpha release, or any in-development product. It is better to wait until you have all the sub-features determined before spending the time and energy to design how they are presented in the main feature. Take the action menu, it seems kinda obvious that as features were added, they were just tossed into the menu with little regard for design. That makes sense, though, rather than adding a feature, spending days redesigning the menu, then adding a new feature only to spend another several days re-re-designing the menu. Or as new methods for control are implemented, there is no reason to waste the time going back to make all controls consistent- might as well wait until the design requirements are finalized.
But that doesn't mean the interface is good right now. And that doesn't mean interface design should be held off until 'the last minute'... it just means that, while I may criticize the interface, I do not necessarily believe development should be frozen for interface improvements at this time...
Perhaps I'll build a usability test for DF...
Grab some varying level experience users...
mod guide could include tasks including
 installing the game,
running the game,
generating a world,
finding a site with specified features,
setting up a specified embark kit,
getting started and building a basic fort, using specified designs...
hmmm

Deathworks

  • Bay Watcher
  • There be no fortress without its feline rulers!
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2010, 12:44:39 pm »

Hi!

Goron: That test you are proposing could actually be extended beyond just the question of the user interface. If you could get volunteers (especially among the inexperienced players), you might get valuable data on what information is needed to be added/stressed in the wiki.

Blazzano: Welcome to the best game in the world and thank you a lot for expressing your feelings. I am really glad to see new players articulate how they see the game as it is very different to guess what questions and problems other people may have. So, please continue being vocal.

The additional pane at the bottom is a nice idea indeed. And I agree that the game does not always give you all the useful information (unless I am mistaken, information about the usage of ores was not really available in game until a few versions ago - you could only go by what the wiki said and what the smelter allowed you to do).

I am sorry for the short reply, but I can't think of much to say (^_^;;

Deathworks
Logged

Oglokoog

  • Bay Watcher
  • [INTERNET_DEPENDENT]
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2010, 01:12:24 pm »

In particular, -q- / -v- / -t- / -k- differentiation. Having single key for all these would make it much better.

I agree with much of the things said in this thread, but to this dear sir I must say that you are utterly, completely, terribly wrong. Of these four hotkeys, only the function of q and t is even remotely similar, so that their functions could be put under one hotkey, but even that wouldn't be better than the way it is now. Other than that? No. It would certainly be nice to be able to switch between those four without resetting the cursor to its default position, but that's all. I think that you've said that without even thinking about what merging the four hotkeys would cause. Just try to imagine at least five different (unsolvable, without adding many, many MORE hotkeys) situations to which this would lead.
Logged
So we got monsters above, monsters below, dwarves in the middle and a party in the dining hall. Sounds good to me.
If all else fails, remember one thing:  kittens are delicious, nutritious little goblin-baiters, cavern explorers, and ambush-finders.

ManaUser

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2010, 07:34:20 pm »

I agree with much of the things said in this thread, but to this dear sir I must say that you are utterly, completely, terribly wrong. Of these four hotkeys, only the function of q and t is even remotely similar, so that their functions could be put under one hotkey, but even that wouldn't be better than the way it is now. Other than that? No. It would certainly be nice to be able to switch between those four without resetting the cursor to its default position, but that's all. I think that you've said that without even thinking about what merging the four hotkeys would cause. Just try to imagine at least five different (unsolvable, without adding many, many MORE hotkeys) situations to which this would lead.
It would take some work, but I don't think there's anything "unsolvable"  about it. Personally I think it would be one of the biggest interface refinements that could be made.

Here's how I would approach it. As a first step, merge q and t as two "pages" of the same mode, just like labor and inventory on a dwarf. (You could even use the same names, since that's basically what q and t are for respectively). Next link the look command two the other the above modes, if you look at a building you get the q+t screen and if you look at a creature you get the v screen. And there you go, everything is accessible from one mode. Separate q+t and v commands could be retained as shortcuts for people who want quicker access. That's just off he top of my head, there are probably even better ways.

Though I do agree that just being able to switch between the current  modes at would go along way.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 07:49:37 pm by ManaUser »
Logged
Akur Akir Akam!

keda

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2010, 09:06:48 am »

Here's my thoughts on the subject:
keyboard vs mouse:
- is a false dichotomy. You have mouse and keyboard not, mouse or keyboard on your pc for a reason. Because both have uses. Viewing Selecting, designating, anything to do with the map, I would rather use the mouse, but firing off commands, I rather use keyboard shortcuts. It takes a while to learn all the shortcuts, especially those you use more seldom but I've learnt to handle them and got to say its quite efficient, and wouldn't want to use a mouse alternative even if it was added, but I'd say that it is inefficient with having a cursor appear at a certain spot when you press k and then having to move that around with arrow keys and shift. Instead just click on what you want and press k or vice versa and pressing q will immediately switch to buildings rather than having to hit space in between.
graphics:
- fixed width font makes the text hard to read when you use square tiles, and otherwise hogs up too much space. You want to have larger tiles and smaller text.
- tileset and graphics modding is unnecssarily complicated and inflexible. Why can't up/down stairs, archery targets and bins have different graphics?
- using sprites in addition to tiles would be more informative and cleaner looking than just having a black background.
misc:
- menus are unsorted and some are too lengthy or both. Could be better organized. Could use mouse scrolling. Stockpile settings is a mess. e-nable f-orbid and enter, and on top of that you have a separate key for sandbags and such. Why?
- organizing your dwarves is a pain. If something like the rapist could be integrated..
- you have to save in order to quit and quit in order to load, and copy folders to handle multiple saves. I just resort to killing the process.

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2010, 09:45:50 am »

Here's my thoughts on the subject:
keyboard vs mouse:
- is a false dichotomy. You have mouse and keyboard not, mouse or keyboard on your pc for a reason. Because both have uses. Viewing Selecting, designating, anything to do with the map, I would rather use the mouse, but firing off commands, I rather use keyboard shortcuts. It takes a while to learn all the shortcuts, especially those you use more seldom but I've learnt to handle them and got to say its quite efficient, and wouldn't want to use a mouse alternative even if it was added, but I'd say that it is inefficient with having a cursor appear at a certain spot when you press k and then having to move that around with arrow keys and shift. Instead just click on what you want and press k or vice versa and pressing q will immediately switch to buildings rather than having to hit space in between.

There's a significant difference between an interface designed keyboard first and one designed mouse first.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

zwei

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ECHO][MENDING]
    • View Profile
    • Fate of Heroes
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2010, 11:29:05 am »

Here's my thoughts on the subject:
keyboard vs mouse:
- is a false dichotomy. You have mouse and keyboard not, mouse or keyboard on your pc for a reason. Because both have uses. Viewing Selecting, designating, anything to do with the map, I would rather use the mouse, but firing off commands, I rather use keyboard shortcuts. It takes a while to learn all the shortcuts, especially those you use more seldom but I've learnt to handle them and got to say its quite efficient, and wouldn't want to use a mouse alternative even if it was added, but I'd say that it is inefficient with having a cursor appear at a certain spot when you press k and then having to move that around with arrow keys and shift. Instead just click on what you want and press k or vice versa and pressing q will immediately switch to buildings rather than having to hit space in between.

There's a significant difference between an interface designed keyboard first and one designed mouse first.

That starts assuming that interface needs to be one or either, just as he pointed out.

You can design "mouse-and-keyboard" interface where you do map movement, map targeting and designation-drawing by mouse but rest handled by keyboard.

Apropriate input device being used for each case is superior base design than "pure" base design.

If you want example in df: Burrows painting interface.

Deathworks

  • Bay Watcher
  • There be no fortress without its feline rulers!
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2010, 11:57:49 am »

Hi!

Zwei: However, there are two things that dampen your theory of mixed design being superior:
1. If you have more than 5 keys, you will probably want to dedicate two hands to the keyboard engine. Thus, you would have constant jumping back and forth of your right hand to hit a key then move the mouse, hit a key ...
Anything you might gain from the mix is eaten up by the jumping back and forth.

2. Frankly, mouse movement requires quite some concentration for me as we are dealing with spacial movement there. Thus, having to handle keyboard input and mouse at the same time is rather tiring, as you expect me to handle two completely different challenges at the same time.

Now, mind you, things like text input (and confirmation within that) via keyboard and controls outside of text input mouse, are good concepts, there is no denying that. But we are probably talking about another dimension here.

Keda: Just because something is there does not mean that it is useful and even if it is useful, there is no logical law that indicates that it is useful in all cases. If you buy a set of spices, there will be very different ones in it, and I don't think you will just dump all of them on your food and expect to get something tasty out of it.

The other comments you make about the interface are more understandable.

However, the quit/save thing is a genre-specific thing as this is a officially still a rogue-like. In addition, given that it is a world simulator, I personally feel that it feels right not to encourage having multiple saves.

Deathworks
Logged

Footkerchief

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Juffo-Wup is strong in this place.
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2010, 12:09:40 pm »

Zwei: However, there are two things that dampen your theory of mixed design being superior:
1. If you have more than 5 keys, you will probably want to dedicate two hands to the keyboard engine. Thus, you would have constant jumping back and forth of your right hand to hit a key then move the mouse, hit a key ...
Anything you might gain from the mix is eaten up by the jumping back and forth.

Where did "more than 5" come from?  People can make heavy use of hotkeys in RTS games like Starcraft and Total Annihilation without ever having to let go of the mouse.
Logged

Deathworks

  • Bay Watcher
  • There be no fortress without its feline rulers!
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #102 on: May 13, 2010, 12:13:36 pm »

Hi!

'5' was an estimate, I admit. But the point is, once you do get a lot of keys, taking advantage of both hands on the keyboard does become interesting in my opinion.

Deathworks
Logged

Footkerchief

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Juffo-Wup is strong in this place.
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #103 on: May 13, 2010, 12:17:41 pm »

Ordinary typing requires that each hand stay more or less stationary.  That demonstrates that the left hand is perfectly capable of hitting... let's see... 27 keys, not including function keys.  And that ignores Ctrl/Shift/Alt combos.
Logged

Deathworks

  • Bay Watcher
  • There be no fortress without its feline rulers!
    • View Profile
Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #104 on: May 13, 2010, 12:26:29 pm »

Hi!

:) :) :) :)

Okay, so it was a less than adequate estimate to say the very least :) :)

However, as your reply hints at, if we want to free up the right hand, we basically surrender nearly half the keyboard, unless we want people to do keyboard acrobatics or unless we want to limit the options in the design of the keyboard part of things.

Deathworks
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8