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Author Topic: Am I the only one who likes the user interface  (Read 28156 times)

cooky173

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2010, 07:38:55 am »

Military aside (and really, maybe I just need a bit more practice with it), and the mentioned spacebar use in 2010, I think a touch more mouse support for designations would make the current UI perfect for me. At the same time, I can't make head or tails out of whats going on with a graphics pack, so I guess I'm a bit odd.

I hope that wherever Toady takes the game, he keeps support for ASCII as long as possible...even if it does become something you have to choose to use.
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Sabin Stargem

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2010, 07:49:24 am »

While it is true that ASCII mode would appeal to people possessing deep imagination, it also runs counter to accessibility.  I think games like Sim City, the Sims, Wonder Project J, Tsukihime, and others would require some imagination to enjoy - but graphics help getting immersed for most people.  I don't think ASCII would be effective for improving the gameplay of Dwarf Fortress, simply because it can't provide as much information as graphics can.
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Jay

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2010, 07:52:44 am »

With the exception of the rather intricate military screen in 0.31.x, I do like the current interface.
Maybe that makes me different from most.
It's usable, but is certainly not easy to get started with.
I almost prefer a game that's not playable by the masses.
It makes the community more intelligent on average.
Look at Wurm Online's premium community.  That game wouldn't have taken up nearly so many hours (1,850 at last count) of my time had it not been for the people I met there.
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Soadreqm

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2010, 08:02:58 am »

Oglokoog: You've been deprived of graphics so long you've developed some kind of perverse Stockholm syndrome nostalgia for it. :D

I don't think lack of graphics is inherently valuable in any way. That's like saying that books are superior to video games because books cannot have interactive elements. Or that theater is superior to cinema because it has less special effects available. I guess people HAVE said that, but that doesn't make it true.

Not that improved graphics are a priority. The ASCII tiles can display quite a lot of information, and remain readable at very small tile sizes, allowing you to show more of the map at once which is definitely a good thing. They also let you ignore all size considerations for as long as you like: with proper 3d graphics, you'd be hard pressed to explain how a hundred dwarves can sleep in a single tile while two kittens cannot pass without crawling over one another. :)
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Mfbrew

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2010, 08:39:43 am »

This is in danger of turning into another dumb graphics debate.  People who "get" ASCII don't mind the curses-style set - and some even prefer it.  It may be a logical fallacy to compare ASCII : tilesets :: books : games.   ASCII : tilesets :: books : movies would probably be more appropriate (though not entirely). 

Still, additional mouse support that supplements but doesn't replace keyboard commands would be awesome.  Dragging designations, scroll wheel for z levels, clicking on the minimap to zoom in - hell yeah.
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moki

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2010, 09:22:53 am »

I actually like the interface because it's so very fast to use once you're used to it (after about a week for me). Almost every command can be accessed by pressing 4 or less keys; no finding the right button, moving the mouse, clicking, moving the mouse to the other side of the screen for the next button and so on. Of course, learning the 20 or so most important keys first is part of the learning curve (or rather, learning cliff), but once that's done, it's absolutely worth it.

As for the graphics: Not necessary in my opinion. I currently play with a slightly modified 12x12 version of the curses set and find it way easier to see what's happening than with most graphics packs. A horde of goblins does look very different from a herd of mountain goats and I have no problem finding the dog in a pile of dragons (it's the burning one)
If there were better possibilities for graphics (as planned in the presentation arc, I think), I think, I'd try again. The thing that bothers me most is that many different things use the same tile from a tileset. Chairs and Tables look like part of drawbridges, so if I want to give a chair a different image, there will be random chair-symbols in my bridges. Or if I decide to draw a nice lever for the ó and ò letters, there will be nicely drawn levers in the names of my dwarves - not what I had planned.
But as I said, there's no problem with ASCII-based sets. There's a wide selection and some even look pretty nice and you can always make your own. I'm already like Morpheus in the Matrix: "I don't see the code. I only see blondes, brunettes, redheads..." ;)
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Kilo24

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2010, 09:25:37 am »

Hmm.  I think that the UI needs a large number of little improvements and a few major ones before I'd say I liked it.  I'd agree that it's not horrible, but a number of things annoy me about it.  The following list is not exhaustive.

-It takes a long while to create megaprojects and any large constructions, since you can only build stuff only on top of other stuff after it gets built and you need to design it so that dwarves won't lock themselves in corners.

-Dwarves cornering themselves all too easily through digging/constructing, unless you make careful preparations each and every time you do so.  Blinking notification of dwarves who lock themselves in 4x4 rooms or smaller could really help - though improving the AI so it didn't do it in the first place would be even better.

-It's impossible to do anything to or view anything from multiple dwarves at once.  I understand Dwarf Therapist is a stopgap fan solution for that, though.

-The burrows system is rather hard to use, especially when you're carving out new areas for your fortress.  Being able to designate burrows in unmined rock would help, as well as having a default burrow designation for new migrants.  I still need to play with the system more, though - I've only got one crash-prone fort from v31.01.
Edit: Apparently, you can designate burrows in unmined rock.  Thanks for the correction, Oglokoog.

-It's a large nuisance to personally set up rooms for each and every dwarf, building a coffer, door, and bed in each one.  Maybe have a designation for the items that lets the dwarves lacking one claim and add the marked items to their room (won't work for the beds, of course, but that's difficult to solve.)

-Auto-canceling digging designations a royal pain 3/4 the time that turns a simple room designation into a few minutes of painful re-designating the same tiles.  It's a good thing every now and then, but halting digging due to water/magma you already know about that won't even be accessed by the digging designation you selected should be redesigned.

-Linking levers could be done a lot better.  Like by showing you which levers are linked to what when you select them.

-Having new migrants come in is a real pain, because there's a number of settings you want to assign to them that you either need to do right when they come, or you forget to do it and are confused about whether or not you assigned them properly.  There are a number of ways to get around that (for example, setting up workshops to only allow dwarves of certain skill levels/identities or naming them custom professions) but the list is long.  Not seeing what tasks your dwarves have enabled at a glance is another related problem.

-Not being able to see multiple creatures on a single tile is a fairly basic annoyance with the game's engine.  It does have a decent workaround at the moment.

-Not seeing details about dwarves.  This is the largest problem that I have with no graphics.  It's not huge, but I'd like the UI a lot more if you could see what they were wearing/bleeding from, for example.  But it's not worth the time to code, IMO.

Let's just say adventure mode has a large number of issues.  I think a lot of them will be fixed by Toady's renewed attention to it over the next few months, though.

Macros solve a number of issues that I'd have, if I could figure out how to use them.  I never played the 40d# releases heavily.  Not so much a problem with the game as with my own laziness.

Hmm... to somewhat digress, I wonder if there should be a "needs screen", which goes over a simple list of things that your dwarves need that are color-coded/numbered with the amount that you have of them, like food/food production, dining rooms or bedrooms.  Maybe add "desires" below it as well for less necessary stuff.  That could really help the new players coming in, and occasionally the odd expert who forgets to include something basic in his latest fort.

There's still a lot of minor things that can be done.  There are really few absolutely bad interfaces in games, but plenty of ones that have little annoyances that could be solved with a bit more attention by the developer.  Dwarf Fortress's complexity makes for a host of those issues almost by default, thus it tends to have a relatively bad rap among games.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 04:06:14 pm by Kilo24 »
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Oglokoog

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2010, 09:43:08 am »

Being able to designate burrows in unmined rock would help.

This needs to be stressed more... you CAN designate burrows in unmined rock. For me, it's basically one of the two reasons for using them at all (the other being the occasional "stay here and don't go where the goblins are" order).
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So we got monsters above, monsters below, dwarves in the middle and a party in the dining hall. Sounds good to me.
If all else fails, remember one thing:  kittens are delicious, nutritious little goblin-baiters, cavern explorers, and ambush-finders.

Mr. GOH!

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2010, 09:44:14 am »

I'm generally fine with the interface, but there are are few glaring problems.

The military screens need to be redone so they make sense. Although I have a feeling we would be much less repulsed by them if the associated military bugs were sorted out. I do wish the equipment screen were a little more useful; I'd like to see what, exactly, a dwarf has equipped at the moment and be able to order him to drop unwanted equipment and forbid him from using specific equipment.

The worst problem for me is how almost every single list in the game requires you to scroll through each entry individually. I loathe getting caravans after a few years because it can take ten minutes to scroll through all the junk. Give me a collapsible list, or at least a freaking page up/page down key so I can scroll quickly. This also applies to the stocks screen as well.

All of a sudden I get the funny feeling that there are page up and page down keys in the trade screen, but I've not found them after more than a year of playing....

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Hyperturtle

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2010, 09:55:51 am »

I want the castle level in Nethack to be replaced with the entrance to my fortress, and all those horrible mazes under that castle can really be the caverns and such that the dwarfs make on the way to HELL!

Of course along the way you have to find the dwarfen, bell, book, and candle, which of course would be artifacts and not cheap plastic imitations easily churned out of a craftsdwarf workshop.
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Lemunde

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2010, 09:57:27 am »

I actually like the interface because it's so very fast to use once you're used to it (after about a week for me). Almost every command can be accessed by pressing 4 or less keys; no finding the right button, moving the mouse, clicking, moving the mouse to the other side of the screen for the next button and so on. Of course, learning the 20 or so most important keys first is part of the learning curve (or rather, learning cliff), but once that's done, it's absolutely worth it.

I guess it all comes down to whether you're a mouse guy or a keyboard guy.  I find it hard to fathom moving the mouse and clicking a few times would be such a hassle.  Personally the less I have to touch the keyboard the better.  That being said, the optimum solution is a combined mouse and keyboard interface.  I seriously doubt Toady will ever get rid of the keyboard commands.  But we really need more mouse support.  These wall designations are giving me carpel tunnel.
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Hyperturtle

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2010, 10:25:28 am »

Ugh, you would want it to be all mouse?

It would take forever to designate things!  click here click there... so much faster to just do a few keyboard commands.  Heck in the various windows programs, the key commands are called "shortcuts" for a reason.
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eidahl

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2010, 10:27:55 am »

I'm generally fine with the interface, but there are are few glaring problems.

The military screens need to be redone so they make sense. Although I have a feeling we would be much less repulsed by them if the associated military bugs were sorted out. I do wish the equipment screen were a little more useful; I'd like to see what, exactly, a dwarf has equipped at the moment and be able to order him to drop unwanted equipment and forbid him from using specific equipment.

The worst problem for me is how almost every single list in the game requires you to scroll through each entry individually. I loathe getting caravans after a few years because it can take ten minutes to scroll through all the junk. Give me a collapsible list, or at least a freaking page up/page down key so I can scroll quickly. This also applies to the stocks screen as well.

All of a sudden I get the funny feeling that there are page up and page down keys in the trade screen, but I've not found them after more than a year of playing....

... but.. you CAN use the page up/down in the trade screen., at least in the latest version.  :P
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Lekegolo Khanid

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2010, 10:37:33 am »

Something that really irks me with the UI is when one object has multiple shortcut keys...like floodgates for example, you use x for one menu, f for another and I think one uses l. Floodgates should just one letter. I gave up on having any sort of military in 2010; I'm not sure if I'm doing it wrong of it's just bugged to hell but the only things I can get to work are attacking through the squad menu and assigning dorfs to burrows. Untrained and unarmed dorfs don't do well in combat...
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Oglokoog

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Re: Am I the only one who likes the user interface
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2010, 10:42:22 am »

Something that really irks me with the UI is when one object has multiple shortcut keys...like floodgates for example, you use x for one menu, f for another and I think one uses l. Floodgates should just one letter. I gave up on having any sort of military in 2010; I'm not sure if I'm doing it wrong of it's just bugged to hell but the only things I can get to work are attacking through the squad menu and assigning dorfs to burrows. Untrained and unarmed dorfs don't do well in combat...

Yes, floodgates PISS ME OFF in this respect. It's terrible.
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So we got monsters above, monsters below, dwarves in the middle and a party in the dining hall. Sounds good to me.
If all else fails, remember one thing:  kittens are delicious, nutritious little goblin-baiters, cavern explorers, and ambush-finders.
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