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[LordBucket]

I've noticed that with the exception of miners and detailers, pretty much all of my Legendary dwarves come from random artifacts, and that practice and training don't count for a whole lot.

Is this a balance we really like?

For example, I routinely start with Proficient stone masons and carpenters, generally set them to work right away, and often have them working almost non-stop. But, I don't think I've EVER had a stone mason or carpenter make it to Legendary from actual practice. Instead, it's generally some random idiot cutting trees, or doing something totally else, who, on a whim, suddenly decides to go build an artifact and POOF! they're Legendary.

This doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, and I don't think it adds anything to the game.

Plus, the whole 'moods' thing is annoying to begin with. Dwarves randomly deciding to kill themselves if some random bunch of ingredients (that they should know aren't available since they've lived in the fortress for years) suddenly materialize? Even more annoying when the dwarf who takes the mood happens to be the only talented craftsman you have of that particular profession.

Does any of this make sense? Is there anyone out there who enjoys it when their dwarves kill themselves for no good reason?

I propose that:

* Random 'crafting moods' be eliminated.
* A new system for artifact construction be implemented.

What? How about this: Artifact construction may be initiated at any time, for any dwarf, by the player, with chance of success being determined by combining the dwarves skill level with the quality of ingredients used. For example, say that 50% of the chance to succeed is determined by the skill level of the dwarf, scaled from 0% success at zero proficiency up to about 40% success at Legendary. The other 50% is from ingredients, also with a 40% cap, and with more and better ingredients giving better odds. But, the maximum chance of success in any case would cap at 80%. And, further cap the maximum value of the ingredient bonus by the value of the skill bonus. So, a 'novice' craftsman using adamant would still have zero chance of success. A moderately skilled craftsmen who receives a 20% chance of success from skill would similarly be limited to a bonus of an extra 20% from ingredients, for a net of 40%. From the artifact creation interface, the player may choose to attempt to build any 'type' of artifact. Thus, deliberate creation of spectacular weapon and armor artifacts would be possible, but, any failure to create the artifact would result in the craftsman committing suicide, similar to the present arrangement.

[TotalPigeon]

I agree that the artifact creation business leaves me sick when it claims my best dwarves, and makes me sigh when they build something really retarded, but I think if you took away the random aspect of the item and choice of dwarf the artifact creation process would become a complete joke. It makes me smile whenever a dwarf of mine creates an artifact weapon, and I think "I'll definitely come back and find that", or when my dwarf makes something ridiculous like a leather skirt - whose major life achievement is going to be a skirt?... But I guarantee, if we could pick, every artifact would be a weapon or armour. The stupid artifacts would be gone. Getting a cool artifact would become the norm. Wheres the fun?

[Zomg]

I think that the implementation of artifacts is currently just a thumbnail. Eventually the artifacts themselves should be consequential and useful enough that a skill boost is just a footnote.

[prklts]

There are a couple of great observations in the post that started this thread.

1) The path to legendary skill is poorly-balanced. It should be possible for all skills -- not just miners and engravers.

2) Moods which oppress and destroy awesome dwarves are not fun. Materials should be possible to obtain. Identifying what the dwarf actually wants should not be so difficult. Finally, failure to construct the artifact should not result in the automatic death of the dwarf.

We're not wanting to cheat! We just want things to be reasonable so that we need not unnecessarily suspend our belief in the game world. (Also, it's bad enough to lose a dwarf, but it really stings when it's through something foolish and unthwartable like this artifact business.) Maybe there could be a year-long depression or something where he's bedridden, but there ought to be the chance to bring him out of it when the materials are eventually available.

Tim

[Captain Mayday]

Personally, I think we could be helped a great deal if the dwarves stopped demanding the items they already have in their workshop when they discover they can't find some ingredient.

Who yells out 'Need metal bars' when they've got a whole load sitting on the bench in front of them?

[Behrooz Wolf]

I just had a fun experience today.  Newly-arrived metalsmith in the first immigration wave quickly goes into a strange mood, with skills of novice armorcraft, novice metalcraft, novice furnace operator.  Visions of high-quality metal flying from my forges danced in my head, masterpiece armor, masterpiece studding, and then...

He produced an artifact toy forge, and became a legendary furnace operator.

I cried.

[Funkadelic Jive Turkey]

I definately don't think one should be able to choose the dwarf and the artifact type. Or if you can then the chances, even at best of levels, should be really low. After all, IRL you can employ an artist\artisan to create something exceptional for you, but the chances of creating something that goes beyond "masterwork" are next to none. (Although it has been done, so maybe the option to try should be there with drastically reduced chances.)

 I think everyone, including Toady, agrees however that the current implementation is faulty. Personally I find the biggest problem to be frequency of moods, in 10 years your fortress can become more wonderous than Rome. Also perhaps dwarves below a certain skill level shouldn't even be elligible for artifact creation, or once again with severly reduced chances. How common is it, really, that somebody who is a "dabbling" artist\artisan suddenly creates something that is worthy of the title of artifact?

 Still, all that said I think the current system is relatively as it should be. It just needs a bit of nerfing\tweaking.

P.S.- Artifacts should require different materials, no basalt mug encrusted\engraved with basalt, menacing with spikes of yet more basalt.

[prklts]

Yeah! I totally agree with the materials thing. I had a ring of wood / wood / wood once. Woot! I guess.

[RPB]

quote:Originally posted by LordBucket:
<STRONG>For example, I routinely start with Proficient stone masons and carpenters, generally set them to work right away, and often have them working almost non-stop. But, I don't think I've EVER had a stone mason or carpenter make it to Legendary from actual practice.</STRONG>

Proficient -> Legendary can be done in two years for a lot of jobs, if the dwarf in question never works on anything else and you keep a steady stockpile supplied nearby.