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[AlanL]

I think that technology and the starting date should be moddable, and since buildings will eventually be in the raws, it looks like we're in luck. It really doesn't look that hard to make steampunk stuff if you're clever, and you could also make magical stuff if you're clever. Use a memory editor to change the year, and you're set. I also like the idea of discoveries, but I think your fortress and world events should influence it. Say, if you set "Steam Engine" to become available by 1795. A giant war could push it back to 1830, or move it forward to 1770, depending on the type of war (pure destruction, or arms race?). Also, having a more technological fort should encourage innovation.

[qwertyuiopas]

also, you could have something like:

"
the dwarves discovered stem mechanics in 1103.
the elves stole steam mechanics technology from the dwarves in 1132.
the dwarves raided all elven settlements with steam mechanics technology in 1133.
the elves managed to regain steam mechanics technology in 1342.
the dwarves crushed the elves with deathstar technology in 1344.
the kobolds unleashed magic on the dwarves in 1345 and eliminated them.
Toady one killed the kobolds with the allmighty inflate-3 in 1350
"

or something like that, but each settlement must either discover stuff on their own or learn stuff from nearby civilizations/settlements...

[Sukasa]

OR trade a lot of money's worth of object for 3 sheets of paper detailing how to build these technologies.

(i.e. once you have them you can build these techs)

[Tormy]

I dont want to see electricity in DF. If the fantasy-medieval concept gonna change, I will stop playing. Sorry but I just love this current gameworld as it is now. I dont think that we need electricity, flying machines and stuff like that. The game can be awesome without these.

What we need is magic system. Magery can be divided into lot of schools. Summoning, enchanting, fire magery etc. That would be fun to have. Electricity? No.

[ November 03, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Sukasa]

Yae bt mgck sux, it defies all lws f lgck.  If Mgck gos in Im gna qt df >8((((!!!!
</badexample>

tl;dr is below.
<longnastyrant>Sorry, but to be honest the whole "I don't like one part of this game so I won't play that whole thing" seems, well...  Immature.  Seriously, if there's an option to turn it off in the raws, you're still not going to play DF simply because it's there?  You know, I hate elephants and sieges, but I keep playing.  Oh, and Aquifiers Suck IMO, but you know some people like them, and I can just choose not to play on an aquifier section.  Magic isn't my favorite thing, but that's not really going to stop me from playing DF.  Really, just changes ":YES" to ":NO" if you want, or just don't build the damn stuff.  Some of us want it in because we want to be able to do as much as possible >8(</longnastyrant>

tl;dr?  Basically, turn it off or don't use it.  That's why people have suggested it be put as a switch in init.txt.  I personally think it should also be like that for magic;  I'd turn it off ASAP if I could.

Apologies to anyone I insulted or pissed off, but I feel it had to be said.

[jellyman]

I personally think DF would be better without electricity.

But I dislike the hostile attitudes displayed on this forum towards technological suggestions.  A lot of people seem to be caught up in the idea that there is a 'wrong' and 'right' way to do DF, and that anyone who promotes the 'wrong' way of doing things needs to be shown the error of their ways.

But really its all personal preference, and the people that think electricity would go in DF are not automatically disqualified from being smart, sensible people with good taste.

Now if someone suggests Blackberrys (the digital type) should be in DF, that would be different  

[Lightman]

quote:Originally posted by BurnedToast:
<STRONG>
and I find it completely incomprehensible that people DON'T want steampunk stuff and firearms and electricity and dwarven robots.

It's a matter of opinion, and the only one that counts is Toady's. if he wants it, it will get added eventually and if he does not then it won't. Saying you don't like it is pointless.</STRONG>

I disagree. Player opinions is of great importance to a programmer. Why do you think this forum exists? Yes, ultimately, it's Toady One's decision as to what is included or not, but obviously he is interested in what players want.

Personally, I don't want to see magic or steampunk or electricity or firearms in this game. I like the style of the game the way it is. I like the elephants and so forth.

In any case, it seems to me there are larger and more important issues that should (and I expect will) come first.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Sukasa:
<STRONG>Yae bt mgck sux, it defies all lws f lgck.  If Mgck gos in Im gna qt df >8((((!!!!
</badexample>

tl;dr is below.
<longnastyrant>Sorry, but to be honest the whole "I don't like one part of this game so I won't play that whole thing" seems, well...  Immature.  Seriously, if there's an option to turn it off in the raws, you're still not going to play DF simply because it's there?  You know, I hate elephants and sieges, but I keep playing.  Oh, and Aquifiers Suck IMO, but you know some people like them, and I can just choose not to play on an aquifier section.  Magic isn't my favorite thing, but that's not really going to stop me from playing DF.  Really, just changes ":YES" to ":NO" if you want, or just don't build the damn stuff.  Some of us want it in because we want to be able to do as much as possible >8(</longnastyrant>

tl;dr?  Basically, turn it off or don't use it.  That's why people have suggested it be put as a switch in init.txt.  I personally think it should also be like that for magic;  I'd turn it off ASAP if I could.

Apologies to anyone I insulted or pissed off, but I feel it had to be said.</STRONG>

I dont think so, especially because if something like electricity would be added, maybe it would be NEEDED to play with that in the game. IE: More stuff would be linked to electricity, like machines to construct XY stuff etc. I think you got the point.
Simply electricity doesnt fit into a game world like this. IMHO. I love this game, but I cant even imagine what would happen if something like this wouldve been added. Cars in v 0.51? Railguns in v0.55? Laser rifles in v0.73?
That is why Ive mentioned magery. THAT would fit well in the game world... Not to mention that magic is on the dev list, if I remember correctly.

It would be only acceptible, if we could turn electricity off in the raws. However in that case, electricity must only have some very minimal useage, like use it for a trap. That way if XY dont want to play with electricity wont be forced to use it, because there are other trap types as well for example.

[ November 03, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by BurnedToast:
<STRONG>

and I find it completely incomprehensible that people DON'T want steampunk stuff and firearms and electricity and dwarven robots.

It's a matter of opinion, and the only one that counts is Toady's. if he wants it, it will get added eventually and if he does not then it won't. Saying you don't like it is pointless.</STRONG>

Saying you do like it then is equally pointless, going by your thoughts.    Toady's usually pretty open about adding stuff the community likes.

Either way, I'm glad that Toady's essentially said that he's wary of adding gunpowder and automoton type things at all.   I'm sure stuff like that will be possible through modding, which would be neat- no need to deny people who want it; I just hope it doesn't become a vanilla game mechanic at all.

You also didn't address my point that a lot of 'steampunk' stuff is superfluous given that torches and slaves would functionally be the same as electricity and robots.

[Dame de la Licorne]

quote: You also didn't address my point that a lot of 'steampunk' stuff is superfluous given that torches and slaves would functionally be the same as electricity and robots.

Not to mention that torches and slaves would be more in keeping with the game world than the equivalent 'steampunk' stuff.  Not that I'm against the concept of electricity but I don't feel it belongs in the DF world.  Magic, on the other hand...

[Capntastic]

The thing is that magic fits perfectly, given that DF is for the most part cultivating a fantasy world.   There's demons and dragons, which are magical type things.   Toady will be able to pull of magic in a way that meshes grandly with everything else established.

Adding TV sets and radios and pneumatic tubes (actually, those might be made to work well...windmill powered giant bellows or something.) and grenades and flashlights and all that stuff don't really fit with the 'setting', much less with the behavior of the dwarves as currently seen.   Toady himself's said, somewhere in the devnotes, and at least a few times in IRC, that robots and whatnot are inherently kinda cheesy if overdone, so I hopefully doubt we'll get much more than golems that function like pets.  

The thought that "we have all the materials so we should be able to do it" is kinda silly, because we also have the materials in-game to make transistors and monitors and stone keyboards- why not a dwarven internet?

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Dame de la Licorne:
<STRONG>

Not to mention that torches and slaves would be more in keeping with the game world than the equivalent 'steampunk' stuff.  Not that I'm against the concept of electricity but I don't feel it belongs in the DF world.  Magic, on the other hand...</STRONG>

Exactly. Probably this is why magic is on the dev list.

[Sheez]

One of the things I have to disagree with is not so much an idea..but a way that the presented idea of electricity is being approached. Somebody mutters the word 'steampunk', and all of a sudden there are fifteen different people going on about computers and lasers and jets and...and..well, zeppelins would be pretty sweet  This may be a side rant and probably a pet-peeve of mine, but please, educate yourselves as to what steampunk is before decrying it.

Electricity has been identified and used in a number of ways, many of them prior to Felix's 'year 1300' stipulation. Check out the history of electricity on wikipedia. It proposes that it is possible the Mesopotamians and Parthians had knowledge of electroplating (and batteries of some sort) well before this sort of arbitrary cap, in addition to the general knowledge of static electricity possessed by the Greeks, the Phoenicians and the aforementioned Mesopotamians and Parthians. I mean, with a phenomena as everpresent and often impressively visual as electricity, how could you imagine any civilized culture wouldn't have taken a little time to explore the possibilities of using it? Also, diverging a little bit, note that the steam engine was in use in Egypt (though not widely) well before said limit. The problem may not lie so much with the time-period so much as the popular perception of it.

Also -

quote: I find it completely incomprehensible that everyone wants to add all this steampunk stuff that does nothing to increase gameplay and really just boils down to gloss for better things like (electricty = torches and lanterns, steam powered golems = kobold/elven slaves), and stuff.

One might find it similarly incomprehensible that people want to add magic which does nothing to increase gameplay and really just boils down to gloss for better things (like learning to live on the ground with all of the joys of walking, or beating your opponents the old-fashioned way with blunt objects). Almost any argument made for the inclusion of magic could be made for the inclusion of early-era technology. We already have advanced smithing techniques (and are bound to get more) after all.

I also have a personal preference, but it's something I'm not going to complain about if it doesn't make it in. I'd love to see the dwarves harness steam. A number of players already had in the older versions for defense of their fortresses. But I mean basic, early developement stuff. Pneumatics and coal-fed steam engines (pretty simple when you get down to the mechanics) used to open the huge granite doors to my dwarves mountain home makes sense. I've already got pumps and channels with which to shunt water around (which I love playing with), why not take that small extra step? Dwarves surely know more than anyone else about the conductivity of metals, why not be able to set up huge, over-sized batteries attached to lightning rods or really basic turbines? It probably won't happen, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to complain if Toady puts in magic. It also does mean I'm going to stop playing if he doesn't like the idea of putting in technology because when it comes down to it it's his world, his game, not mine. I'm just lucky enough to be able to play in it.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Sheez:
<STRONG>
One might find it similarly incomprehensible that people want to add magic which does nothing to increase gameplay </STRONG>

What crack are you on man? Magic does nothing to increase gameplay? Do you know the various RPG worlds? If something than magic could enchance the gameplay. Healing spells, unit/weapon/armor enchantements, direct/area damage spells, summoning/conjuring etc. etc. etc.
If you want to see that how can magic enchance the gameplay check out the game: Dominions 3 - The Awakening for example.

[ November 03, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[qwertyuiopas]

So, they flame the tech lovers but ignore the people who want to build "computers"? of course, those are water powered computers, but still...

magical mechanics: a floodgate that reacts instantly? toggled water sourced? more advanced linkages?

steam mechanics: complex logic gates? miniscule pad->mechanical energy(rotating shafts)

very little diffrence, but however Toady decides to go with this, the community will adapt to it, and the computers get better.