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Author Topic: Oh. Oh..... dear.....  (Read 10362 times)

style

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2010, 02:12:13 am »

Superior training and superior weaponry have, when taken together, a geometric effect on overall military strength. Well-trained, well-equipped troops can stand up to many more times their lesser brethren than linear arithmetic would seem to indicate.

-- Col. Corazon Santiago, Spartan Battle Manual

Remember, there is no such thing as overkill.
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Labhras

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2010, 02:14:58 am »

I do miss chuckling after yelling "Urist smash!"
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palsch

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2010, 03:40:43 am »

Ummmm..... I was wondering what to do with my day tomorrow, and I think I have to make a mod now!
[snip]
Please...
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Z1000000m

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2010, 07:00:44 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
  Migrant
                                 

Weellll....you can't deny these two are very, very different:
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3568/pic1yb.png
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5701/pic2a.png

Guess which one will do better as a soldier ;)

uhh... neither? They are both dead.
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Haekel

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2010, 07:29:20 am »

Who said an armor canīt be a weapon?
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Old-one-eye

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2010, 08:34:50 am »

Who said an armor canīt be a weapon?
This is a masterfully designed goblin fucker boot all craftdwarfship is of the highest quality, it menaces with spikes of badass.
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Greiger

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2010, 09:16:28 am »

That's what DF needs, The gutbuster brigade.  Screw that elf and his cat. Thibbledorf Pwent is the real hero.
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Karnewarrior

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2010, 09:37:59 am »

That's what DF needs, The gutbuster brigade.  Screw that elf and his cat. Thibbledorf Pwent is the real hero.
OH HELL YEAH! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT! PWENT!
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Grendus

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2010, 10:51:30 am »


In 40d I saw training non marksdwarf weaponized military as a pain in the ass, as it takes years for them to get a title like "Sworddwarf".

Then it ends up turning to wrestler because he dodges a split second after that and gains wrestling experience.

All of my soldiers, even the marksdwarves, were "wrestlers", because the title is defined by their highest skill. Due to a bug, every grab, grapple, punch, etc that sparring dwarves did was worth 30 exp. A season and a half wrestling experience and they were legendary, it was crazy. Then you strap steel armor and silver weapons on them and let them spar for two and a half more years and they're legendary axedwarves, but because wrestling was still so high they were champion wrestlers.

If your 40d dwarves were wrestling when assigned weapons, check to make sure they aren't holding another dwarf's clothing/armor. Wrestlers had a nasty bug where they forgot to drop stripped armor, and if they were holding anything but a weapon and shield in their hands they only wrestled. Just assign them no armor/weapon, wait a few seconds to make sure all of them get the memo, then assign them gear again. Worked like a charm.
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Orris

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2010, 10:59:27 am »

Superior training and superior weaponry have, when taken together, a geometric effect on overall military strength. Well-trained, well-equipped troops can stand up to many more times their lesser brethren than linear arithmetic would seem to indicate.

-- Col. Corazon Santiago, Spartan Battle Manual

Remember, there is no such thing as overkill.

I love you.
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Jacob/Lee

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2010, 10:59:34 am »

Who said an armor canīt be a weapon?
Shoving your boot up someone's ass just got a whole lot deadlier...

Psieye

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2010, 11:19:38 am »

Regarding wrestlers 40d vs present, there's a huge detail to note: wrestling does far less now than it used to. In 40d, wrestling = grappling, dodging, punching, etc and as was pointed out by Grendus the EXP growth rate was ridiculous. Now, wrestling = only grappling. There's a separate skill for dodging and another one for punching.

2 further factors go into separating 40d from the present: the new materials/physiology system and the new attribute system. Back in 40d, your wrestlers were quickly Legendary +5 and probably were ZOMG statted in all 3 attributes too because everything (including socialising) trained up strength/agility/toughness with no upper limit (well, there was but most creatures were almost 2 orders of magnitude below it). In DF2010, dwarves have an upper limit to how far they can train their attributes (once attribute training is debugged) and the new materials system (yet to be fully balanced) heavily punishes you if your attacking material is inferior to the defending material.

So then, what would we need to bring back the mythical martial artist dwarves of the past?
1) Attribute training debugged - possibly also modded to raise the limit.
2) Metal fist weapons or revamped gauntlets - something that lets you use a metal's properties instead of your bare fist flesh properties when you punch. Not sure whether you'd want the metal to be as dense as possible or as hard as possible given DF physics.
3) STRIKING (and dodging) skill training - what you're interested in is killing them, preferably by punching them 50 tiles into a wall.
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Military Training EXP Analysis
Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

Osdeath

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2010, 11:30:45 am »

2) Metal fist weapons or revamped gauntlets - something that lets you use a metal's properties instead of your bare fist flesh properties when you punch. Not sure whether you'd want the metal to be as dense as possible or as hard as possible given DF physics.

Why bother with weapons or gauntlets? can't we just mod dwarves so their hands are made out of pure steel? :P
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palsch

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2010, 11:50:02 am »

Why bother with weapons or gauntlets? can't we just mod dwarves so their hands are made out of pure steel? :P
Or make a few improvements to surgery...

Urist McScissorhands anyone?

Obviously fully trained pincher.
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Psieye

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Re: Oh. Oh..... dear.....
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2010, 11:51:09 am »

The idea was to have mortal dwarves of flesh and bone be able to pull these feats, no matter how outrageous they be. Modding them to be steel golems breaks the point~

In fact, I'm doing some tests in the arena with a CivForge metal rebalancing mod tweaks and with dwarves at ridiculous strength.

Quote from: Arena combat report
Dwarf 1 chops Goblin 1 in the left hand with his left hand, shattering the bone through the large bronze left plate gauntlet!
The Goblin 1 loses hold of the bronze buckler.

Uh hmm... dwarves have this annoying tendency to want to hold a weapon no matter what it seems. I just had a superstrength dwarf tackle a goblin, steal his toad leather shirt FROM UNDERNEATH HIS BRONZE ARMOUR and beat him to death with said shirt. At one point, he "strikes the goblin in the left upper arm from behind with his large toad leather shirt, jamming the bone through the left shoulder's muscle and tearing apart the left shoulder's muscle and brusing the bone!"

Earlier, another super dwarf stole a goblin's bronze helm and cracked his skull with that very same helm... What the hell kind of martial arts have I come across by modding strength?

Edit: Oh wait scratch that, further testing shows these are cases of picking up a dead goblin's equipment and using it to bash other goblins.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 12:30:24 pm by Psieye »
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Military Training EXP Analysis
Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.
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