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[RedKing]

Yes, you're trying to calm him down. I assume people are talking about the parents who completely fucking ignore their children when they're crying. Like they're particularly annoying alarm clocks that will just shut off on their own.

I've had children run up to me when I'm trying to eat my dinner and just start screaming in my face, their parents didn't so much bat an eyelid at this occuring.

Yeah, that sucks. I will admit there are times when we just ignore the kids specifically because they're TRYING to get a reaction. I don't like it, but often there's not an alternative. Let's say we're waiting for a table. Kids start whining that they're hungry (or bored or wanna go somewhere else or don't like that kind of food or etc. ad rageum). Guess what? Fuck-all I can do about it, kids. LRN2PATIENCE.

My daughter is particularly bad about this.

*driving to pick up my son, have a deadline to do so by*
Daughter: "I'm hungry."
Me: "Okay, we'll get some food after we pick up your brother."
Daughter: "But I'm HUNGRY!!!"
Me: "I am aware of this fact. We will get food after your brother."
Daughter: "But I'm SOOOOOOOO HUNGRY ICANTWAIT!!!!"
Me: "Your objection has been noted." (A line I use a lot to indicate "I hear you, I can't do shit about it, now kindly shut the fuck up")
Daughter: *proceed to launch into hysterical wailing, threats, pleading, etc.*

Believe me, I'm not ignoring her because I can just "tune her out". I actually can't tune *anything* out, which is its own massive problem. But it's pointless to try and reason/argue with a small child. Sometimes all you can do is wait them out.

[i2amroy]

Good parenting is easy to miss as it is the expected norm. Alas, lots of people arent capable of it. I like to think that my 2 little demons are being brought up well, but its not as if I am doing it for praise from the general public - I am doing it as I want them to be good adults in the future.

So, yea, as far as I am concerned people can cope with the odd public tantrum that gets ignored. The ends justifies the means.

Agreed. And the problem is that bad parenting breeds more bad parenting then you had before (due to the increasing world population meaning each 2 people have an average amount of children more then 2). We're really fighting an uphill battle to teach as many people as possible to be good parents, since the number who are bad parents is constantly increasing to make our task harder.

[The Darkling Wolf]

Once again, I have no problem with kids making noise, kids make noise, it is nature. It's when they're running right up into a complete stranger, who's just trying to enjoy his dinner, and screaming in his face that I get mildly annoyed, you might not be able to switch the screaming off like a light, but you could at the very least tell/ask them to leave said person alone.

Christ, if they'd told him to leave me alone and he ignored them, I'd have been fine with it, but it's the fact they didn't even make the token effort to do that which pissed me off so much.

[RedKing]

Oh yeah, that shit bothers me too. My kids are not allowed to roam in a restaurant (or much of anyplace other than specifically designated child-roaming zones). We try not to even let our kids stare at other tables.

[Yoink]

I'm not gonna touch this ongoing discussion.
I don't think voicing (Well, typing) my opinions on this topic would really accomplish anything much.

[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, that sucks. I will admit there are times when we just ignore the kids specifically because they're TRYING to get a reaction. I don't like it, but often there's not an alternative.
[...]
Believe me, I'm not ignoring her because I can just "tune her out". I actually can't tune *anything* out, which is its own massive problem. But it's pointless to try and reason/argue with a small child. Sometimes all you can do is wait them out.

Of course you don't try to argue/reason with them. That would be stupid. And no, you don't try to intimidate them either, that's also stupid and bad, you're right.
"Doing nothing" isn't all that much of an improvement. They are obviously getting some reward from their actions, even if it's merely internal, and passive acceptance is not likely to do much more than encourage it.

But you know what children do understand? Clear, consistent consequences. They may be crazy as fuck a good deal of the time, but they are not so stupid they can't be taught better behaviour. (Well, at least once you're into the 2s, an age built around discovering consequences)

And when I say they aren't stupid, they really aren't: There are often people they won't whine or cry of tantrum around. There are other people they will whine and tantrum around from dawn till dusk. They learn relatively quickly when it's tolerated, when it's not, and when they'll be rewarded for it. Especially whining - ignoring them just isn't enough. Many kids seem to actually /enjoy/ whining - I would end up tearing my hair out dealing with them if I tolerated it.

One of the girls from last year loved to whine. She didn't  seem to care if she got what she wanted. I'd known early on it was going to be a potential problem, provided a very clear list of escalating consequences (she was 6, which was thankfully old enough for collaboration, it seems way more effective when they help decide what the outcome should be). It seemed to work, honestly - it's been an effective strategy most times I've tried it. It doesn't always work - kids are different - but there's almost always /something/ that works. She would ultimately /only/ do it when my mom or my brother was around (my mom ignored it and it sent my brother into a rage) and I wasn't in charge - when I was in charge, she ... wouldn't. She knew what would happen.

And the thing is, none of the consequences were even that bad! "Stand in the corner for 20 seconds. Go to your room for 5 minutes. Lose a favored toy/object for a day. Lose another. Have friends sent home." etc. and so on. Most were barely slaps on the wrist, but they sent the message "this is unacceptable".

Oh god those first two days were a nightmare, but the long term results were totally worth it seeing how she frazzled my mom.

[The Darkling Wolf]

But not every child who's running around screaming their lungs out is tantrumming. Some are doing it because, when you're 5, running around screaming your lungs out is fun.

[GlyphGryph]

Again, depends on the kid. If they want attention from strangers, ignoring them won't prevent it. If they just want to let off steam, ignoring them marks it as an acceptable release. If they want something in /particular/, ignoring them might work, but it's hard to argue it's the most effective strategy.

Even if they are doing it for attention, introducing incompatible incentives is often MUCH more effective than simply ignoring the behaviour in the hopes that for extinction due to lack of reinforcement.

(That last one is one of the primary ways to deal with really young noisemakers like babies, as I'm sure you've noticed. If they want to suck on their pacifier, they have to stop crying to do it)

[RedKing]

Altogether different kind of rage:

Some of you probably remember that I posted recently about a close friend's wife dying suddenly. We held her memorial service yesterday. Went about as well as could be expected, except for one part.

Her family is very, very religious (some flavor of Pentecostal Holiness, I think) and very strict and conservative. At some point in her young life, she had made a conscious rejection of all that. Which is not to say that she was atheist, far from it. But she held a much more positive, much more personal type of religious faith that was more or less non-denominational. As does her husband, who grew up in a similar (though not quite as oppressive) conservative religious background and likewise had a conscious rejection of it. (His family's church did glossolalia, if that you gives you any indication.)

So...I would say they were two of the most "religious" of my friends, but it was an altogether positive, affirming sort of "folk" Christianity. They didn't really go to church, although they used a (female) Episcopal minister for their wedding and for her funeral service.


So anyways, the rage part....there was a "sharing of stories" near the end, and her brother spoke. And within the first couple of minutes, he started talking about her "struggle with religion" and how she had "rejected her faith". The hackles stood up on the back of my neck. I don't give a flying fuck what else is true in this world, you do NOT use someone's funeral as a platform to criticize them. You just don't. I looked at a buddy of mine, and I think we were watching each other as if to say, "Am I going to have to hold you back, or are you going to have to hold me back?"

He finally wound it up after a few minutes and essentially said, "Well, anyways she had started to become Episcopalian," (not really) "and while that's a different kind of Christianity than ours, I guess it counts. So she died a Christian, and that's good."

Of course, of our circle of friends here, most are atheists, agnostics, Jews, Buddhists, Unitarians and Taoists. I was worried his spiel was going to go into far worse territory, with him somehow blaming her death on "turning away from God" and casting blame on her husband and all her heathen friends for encouraging her. THAT would have turned things super-ugly.

But still, who the fuck publicly criticizes someone at their own funeral? Especially when it's your own goddamn sister?? RARGLBLAGHRAEG
This is why fuck fundies. Seriously, fuck those guys.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Unfortunately, that is not the first time I have heard stories of such things and worse happening at funerals.

[Hanslanda]

But still, who the fuck publicly criticizes someone at their own funeral? Especially when it's your own goddamn sister?? RARGLBLAGHRAEG
This is why fuck fundies. Seriously, fuck those guys.

Sadly, I must +1 this. I have never seen any evidence that being fundamentalist makes you better than anyone else, despite assertations to the contrary.

[Loud Whispers]

But still, who the fuck publicly criticizes someone at their own funeral? Especially when it's your own goddamn sister?? RARGLBLAGHRAEG
This is why fuck fundies. Seriously, fuck those guys.

Sadly, I must +1 this. I have never seen any evidence that being fundamentalist makes you better than anyone else, despite assertations to the contrary.

They all get +2 to ignore checks

[Hanslanda]

But still, who the fuck publicly criticizes someone at their own funeral? Especially when it's your own goddamn sister?? RARGLBLAGHRAEG
This is why fuck fundies. Seriously, fuck those guys.

Sadly, I must +1 this. I have never seen any evidence that being fundamentalist makes you better than anyone else, despite assertations to the contrary.

They all get +2 to ignore checks

Sigh. It's sad, really, more than rageworthy, that people will go through such convoluted hoops so they can believe they're right and everyone else is wrong.

[kaijyuu]

Dammit that's horrible, RedKing D:

[MaximumZero]

That is horrible.