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Author Topic: Things that made you RRRRRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: Trust-o-nomics Edition  (Read 3426229 times)

wierd

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31500 on: January 13, 2014, 10:28:38 pm »

I understand the frustration, but take a deep breath...

Now read the cantebury tales. (Original middle english.) Note the curious similarities amidst the otherwise incomprehesible sea of word soup.

Language is not a stone. It's more like a tree. Complaining about seeing misspellings and gramatical errors "at large" should be a sign; the language is defined by the use. the language does not define the use. The tiny banch you railed against in your youth can swell to become a mighty limb before you get old, and in the course of your life, you may reflect at how it has changed, without noticing until just now.

If cantebury tales is too old, try simply reading some lovecraft, and his love of using archaic words, like "gaol", instead of "jail".

It's OK to be a little vexed by the slow movement of the river, taking you away from the things you recognise. But always remember that it *is* a river in which you are standing, and the banks do change with time.

No force on earth will stop that.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 10:30:49 pm by wierd »
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alexandertnt

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31501 on: January 13, 2014, 10:33:02 pm »

If cantebury tales is too old, try simply reading some lovecraft, and his love of using archaic words, like "gaol", instead of "jail".

People still go to Gaol down here in Australia.
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

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crazysheep

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31502 on: January 13, 2014, 10:45:15 pm »

something is broken with my home network. I'd post in Life Advice, but I don't even know where to start.
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Descan

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31503 on: January 13, 2014, 10:51:38 pm »

Personally, I'm a fan of Anglish, and wish it would spread more.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31504 on: January 13, 2014, 10:59:55 pm »

something is broken with my home network. I'd post in Life Advice, but I don't even know where to start.

What sort of problem are you having with your home network? I have a few industry certs and some job experience managing networks, and may be able to help you.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31505 on: January 13, 2014, 11:07:34 pm »

The issue with the prescriptive vs. descriptive conflict is that "but everyone spells/uses it that way" doesn't make it right. Linguistic shifts are normal and natural, but misuse through ignorance is not something that should be encouraged, especially in an era where we've finally managed to nail down consistent standards. One of the major reasons for older writings being more of a strain to read casually is because people spelled, punctuated, capitalized, etc. however they pleased, according to their own standards. This isn't bad by default, and in fact can be used to great effect, but there is a difference between (say) Dickinson's use of em-dashes and someone who doesn't use question marks for interrogative sentences because they don't know or care that one is supposed to.

When standards are ignored either because people don't understand them or are too lazy to adhere to them, it causes problems with comprehension--see the difficulties in communication between people from different regions who speak the "same" language, and then imagine that translated into textual communication as well, via dialectic spelling, punctuation, etc. Long-short = You need to understand the rules to break them.
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crazysheep

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31506 on: January 13, 2014, 11:08:42 pm »

something is broken with my home network. I'd post in Life Advice, but I don't even know where to start.

What sort of problem are you having with your home network? I have a few industry certs and some job experience managing networks, and may be able to help you.

Will shoot a PM your way then :3
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31507 on: January 13, 2014, 11:20:14 pm »

The issue with the prescriptive vs. descriptive conflict is that "but everyone spells/uses it that way" doesn't make it right. Linguistic shifts are normal and natural, but misuse through ignorance is not something that should be encouraged, especially in an era where we've finally managed to nail down consistent standards. One of the major reasons for older writings being more of a strain to read casually is because people spelled, punctuated, capitalized, etc. however they pleased, according to their own standards. This isn't bad by default, and in fact can be used to great effect, but there is a difference between (say) Dickinson's use of em-dashes and someone who doesn't use question marks for interrogative sentences because they don't know or care that one is supposed to.

When standards are ignored either because people don't understand them or are too lazy to adhere to them, it causes problems with comprehension--see the difficulties in communication between people from different regions who speak the "same" language, and then imagine that translated into textual communication as well, via dialectic spelling, punctuation, etc. Long-short = You need to understand the rules to break them.

That seems rather conceited.

The "grammar nazi" thing is fairly recent in the history of communication (in that they have a set of "strict rules" to beat people senseless with), while the "complain about the youth misusing words and phases" thing is at least as old as ancient greece.

The grammar nazi relies on the modern contrivance of standardisation; language has historically not given a squat about that.

I see this quite frequently in fact, where new technology or new social settings create neologisms and portmantaeus made from malapropisms (ahem.. like the infamous "malamantaeu", but also more appropriately with things like "lol". The grammar nazi comes unglued seeing these words used, shrieking to the stars above that "Those aren't even real words!". Heaven forbid that the words use purposeful misspellings or misconjugations for impact.) Are used, and the grammar nazies come out in force. At what point does the meme become a fixture of language? After all, things like "hit the bull's eye" and "struck the jackpot" are little more than aphorisms taken out of context and time, being applied to things often wholly unrelated to the original intent. The differences between such fixtures and memes that have lost their original meaning is pure academia. Functionally, they basically the same thing.  At what point does a meme gain admission, in the face of the grammar nazi? When the old nazis finally die of old age perhaps?

The grammar nazi wants to assert, (for the sake of standards, of course!) That these kinds of uses are simply wrong, and can never be in the dictionary-- they curiously never seem to account for the large number of such features that are present in the language and in the dictionary already however.

The adoption and use of neologisms, and the POPULAR USE of spelling is what HAS historically driven the evolution of written language. See for instance, "color", -v- "colour".  The brittish grammar nazi will go purple trying to argue with the american grammar nazi about which is correct.

"We finally have standards!" Is asserting that you can freeze the river.

It doesn't hold.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 11:28:43 pm by wierd »
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Elephant Parade

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31508 on: January 13, 2014, 11:35:15 pm »

Quote
"Those aren't even real words!".
YOU MADE A MISTAKE, LEAVE THE FORUMS FOREVER. :P
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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31509 on: January 13, 2014, 11:40:10 pm »

You're missing the point and strawmanning as well, wierd. I think that the evolution of language in new directions is a good thing--when it enhances or creates meaning. Change itself is neither inherently good or bad, and if you think that I was arguing otherwise you probably need to reread my post. The fundamental purpose of language is communication; ergo, linguistic developments which enhance the ability of people to communicate with each other are good, and those which inhibit, deter, or increase the difficulty of communication are bad.

"i herd dat joni and pet went 2 teh party last nite even tho they werent invite their such assholes lol" is not good from a linguistic standpoint because it corrupts the ability of people to communicate with each other (lack of comprehension for anyone not privy to that written dialect). This is why linguistic standards are important: they allow people to clearly communicate. Minor errors and affects aren't worth being concerned with, because they don't significantly impede communication.

For a great example of creative, useful linguistic developments, take the emoticon. They're a fascinating and incredibly helpful development, and a good example of language evolving to fill a need--namely, as a replacement for body language and facial expressions in pure text-based communication.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31510 on: January 13, 2014, 11:43:25 pm »

And I was pointing out that EXACTLY THAT (inconsistent use overtaking "standard" use, regardless of "academic acceptence") has been the historical driver behind changes in linguistic spelling.

Seriously, read cantebury tales. When read aloud, it "sounds" very much like modern english. The meaning has not really changed, just the syntax and form of sentence construction.

If not through progressive levels of common popular misuse, from whence did we get "jail" from "gaol"? A person expecting to see "gaol" will be confused by "jail". When did it become acceptable, and how do you permit changes like this in your paradigm?

The grammar nazi from the 1600s would rail every bit against "Jail", as you just did against "I herd..."

« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 12:13:53 am by wierd »
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Vorthon

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31511 on: January 13, 2014, 11:45:20 pm »

Oh hey looks like I've managed to catch a linguistics thing. Get into minor disagreements about language with my grandmother all the time (I pronounce 'mouth' as 'mouf' most of the time, for one thing. Must be a lisp or something). She's one of those people who view any change in language as bad. which, now that I think about it, is mildly irritating. :u
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Urist Imiknorris

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31512 on: January 13, 2014, 11:46:08 pm »

Personally, I'm a fan of Anglish, and wish it would spread more.
I'm a fan of Angrish.
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Sirus

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31513 on: January 13, 2014, 11:46:38 pm »

Keep in mind that a big reason that language evolved so much over the years was the lack of easy recording of the "proper" use of language. There was no way to record audio and books could only do so much to spread the correct way to spell or use grammar. This isn't a problem any more in the modern age, where simple phones can record video and spellcheck is a simple right-click away.

This has probably been brought up before.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you RRRAAAAGGGGEEEE today: FICO ME? I FICO YOU!!! Edition
« Reply #31514 on: January 13, 2014, 11:50:59 pm »

Again, that is asserting that you can freeze the river.

The fact that "temporarely" has started appearing in professional text clearly illustrates this.

In terms of logical description, the grammarian is shouting "No! We froze the river so that the banks would be standard! You can't do that!", when in reality, a frozen river is just a glacier.

All you've accomplished is to slow the pace.

The exact same "flow" will happen, even in the face of the screaming. :)
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