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[Putnam]

The only way to have fun on Temple when Fox is involved is you playing as Fox anyway

And yeah, he doesn't feel nearly as awesome in Brawl. I enjoy Falco more in Melee, but hitting shine spikes as Fox is almost as satisfying as Falco's OP-as-shit dair.

Meta Knight is fun to play unless you like people, in which case I think Lucario's probably my favorite in Brawl. I was about to say Ice Climbers, but their entire playstyle is based around trapping your enemy in an infinite they can't escape, which, again, not fun if you like people.

SSB tournaments are double elimination, usually.

I don't understand why some skills are considered legitimate and others aren't.

See, that's not the problem. The problem isn't that item skills aren't considered good, it's that when items are thrown into the mix these skills take over to the expense of all other skills in the game. It's much like if Akuma were allowed in Street Fighter 2; the entire game would be about how good you are at Akuma instead of how good you are at the game. Sometimes, certain features of the game will only be included to the detriment of all others, forcing out any other skills for that one, and items would cause that. Such features deserve to be banned.

Situational awareness and adapting are what the game is all about anyway. It's not about who can do a waveshine the best mostly because nobody can actually do that consistently, it's about who can read their opponents the best. Mango is nearly universally considered the best Melee player in the world and he doesn't waveshine and do crazy shit like that, he's the best player because he's the best at going with the flow and reacting.

You don't have the option to turn off the most BS items (instakill explosives, which still show up in the form of capsules when any item is on).

[UXLZ]

Hence why it was Fox vs. Fox.
Seriously though, Hyrule temple is so damn awesome but it definitely favors faster characters if only due to the sheer size of the level (the reason I love it so much. Also the music, god damn that music kicks ass.)

I think they made his smashes close less distance and his movement slightly slower. Also, I think the higher quality animations changed his 'feel' somewhat.

Lucario was one I forgot to mention, but moreso because I like Lucario than I like playing *as* Lucario. Metaknight is just super boring for me. I don't like the play style.

Double elimination is slightly better but you can still get screwed over way too hard by a single item drop.

I don't understand why some skills are considered legitimate and others aren't.

Because some are RNG-based and others aren't. You can have all the situational awareness, adaptation and creativity that you want, but when a Pokeball spawn next to you and pops out a Lugia that isn't skill-based, it's pure 100% unadulterated luck.
At least, that's the common perception.
Also what Putnam said.

Personally I think what you're talking about is a legitimate skill, but I also think it has no place in a competitive environment. 

[Putnam]

And, like I said, playing with items on is more than fine, very very fine. It's a very good game, very fun with friends.

But it ain't competitive. I wouldn't play Mario Party competitively. It's not like Chess vs Poker, it's like Chess vs Chess With The Occasional Guy Who Knocks Over Or Places Pieces At Random And You Have To Deal With That.

[Graknorke]

Nothing wrong with luck, it just adds a new element to learn to account for and so a wider range of skills that can be learned and applied in relation to other skills.
While it may affect the result of an individual round in a random way, over the course of entire tournaments and series of tournaments, the players with more skills are still going to win. It's the same idea as professional poker, the cards dealt are random but there are still players who consistently win more than by just random chance many games.

[EnigmaticHat]

I don't understand why some skills are considered legitimate and others aren't.

See, that's not the problem. The problem isn't that item skills aren't considered good, it's that when items are thrown into the mix these skills take over to the expense of all other skills in the game. It's much like if Akuma were allowed in Street Fighter 2; the entire game would be about how good you are at Akuma instead of how good you are at the game. Sometimes, certain features of the game will only be included to the detriment of all others, forcing out any other skills for that one, and items would cause that. Such features deserve to be banned.

Situational awareness and adapting are what the game is all about anyway. It's not about who can do a waveshine the best mostly because nobody can actually do that consistently, it's about who can read their opponents the best. Mango is nearly universally considered the best Melee player in the world and he doesn't waveshine and do crazy shit like that, he's the best player because he's the best at going with the flow and reacting.

You don't have the option to turn off the most BS items (instakill explosives, which still show up in the form of capsules when any item is on).

This is the closest I've come to agreeing with you this whole time, the capsule thing is silly and yes, items can take over the game but you're kidding yourself if you think that's why most players don't like them.  Where we mainly disagree though is that reading your opponent is not nearly the same as situational awareness.  By that argument, Street Fighter, Poker, even Cards against Humanity are all about situational awareness.

Like seriously, you can see the whole screen and you're looking at one dude, on a stationary level which never changes.  Competitive smash has basically zero element of situation awareness.  What you're thinking of is reflexes and mutual guesswork (AKA is he attacking low or high), the core of every fighting game *except* SSB.

[MaximumZero]

I'd try and make the point that items and environmental hazards are more about situational tactics and being the fastest to rapidly change gears than anything else. A lot of people are bad at it, which makes it "unfair" even though it effects everyone, just like all the bitching I hear about crits in TF2.

[Putnam]

AFAIK, they were banned mostly because it's salty as hell when you lose to a lucky item and salt is pretty detrimental to communities (I.E no johns, items give you a real nice scapegoat to blame for your inadequacies).

[SalmonGod]

I don't understand why some skills are considered legitimate and others aren't.

Because some are RNG-based and others aren't. You can have all the situational awareness, adaptation and creativity that you want, but when a Pokeball spawn next to you and pops out a Lugia that isn't skill-based, it's pure 100% unadulterated luck.

Only if pokeballs only spawn next to one player consistently through an entire match, or the match is short enough that luck-factors don't have time to average out.

See, that's not the problem. The problem isn't that item skills aren't considered good, it's that when items are thrown into the mix these skills take over to the expense of all other skills in the game. It's much like if Akuma were allowed in Street Fighter 2; the entire game would be about how good you are at Akuma instead of how good you are at the game. Sometimes, certain features of the game will only be included to the detriment of all others, forcing out any other skills for that one, and items would cause that. Such features deserve to be banned.

Once again, that works both ways... removing items narrows the focus down to honed reflexes vs a much, much narrower set of actions.  It doesn't just favor that skill above others.  It makes that the only skill that matters at all.

It's the same idea as professional poker, the cards dealt are random but there are still players who consistently win more than by just random chance many games.

Exactly this.

And, like I said, playing with items on is more than fine, very very fine. It's a very good game, very fun with friends.

But it ain't competitive.

The problem I run into is this.  I'm pretty good at games.  But not competitive scene good.  I've been playing games my whole life, and I put in a lot of effort when I play them.  But I don't do shit like serious research into metagame or taking time just to practice.  I only play as a free time activity for fun.

So this puts me in this weird middle zone.  There aren't many people who play games like me.  People who are good enough at games to challenge me are also people who tend to approach games with a competitive mindset.  People who do not approach gaming with a competitive mindset tend to be unable to keep up with me.  They will get frustrated playing with me, and I will get bored playing with them.

But I absolutely fucking hate the effect that the competitive approach has to games.  It makes them completely not fun.  I do not have fun playing with "Stop Having Fun Guys" who refuse to play outside of competitive rules, strict metagames, etc.

So I find myself growing more and more bitter towards the gaming community as a whole, and retreated more and more from multiplayer games.  Worthy of rage thread.

[smeeprocket]

you guys take SSB waaay too seriously.

I always used it as a drinking game. I got pretty drunk pretty fast like that. Admittedly, I would sometimes have pre-game shots because I always played better drunk.

[Putnam]

I do not have fun playing with "Stop Having Fun Guys" who refuse to play outside of competitive rules, strict metagames, etc.

I don't know any of those people. They're a small minority even in the competitive scene. The guy who was fanning as meta knight up there was having fun and he's generally considered to be the best Brawl player in the world. I'll play with two stocks, no items etc. usually, but if someone's like "yo we should play with items" I would just say "yeah okay".

[EnigmaticHat]

I think the "stop having fun guys" are over-represented on the internet.  Still definitely exist though.

There's also a certain kind of person that thinks their playstyle is innately superior because its like the competitive community even though they themselves are not competitive.  That's a common idiocy in most gaming communities, forums, comment threads... probably in real life too although I only know one person like that personally.

[Graknorke]

probably in real life too although I only know one person like that personally.

Do you not know anyone who plays football in any sort of organised team? Seriously they all think they're the absolute shit 'cuz they try to play like someone from their favourite team.

[Tawa]

I do not have fun playing with "Stop Having Fun Guys" who refuse to play outside of competitive rules, strict metagames, etc.

I don't know any of those people. They're a small minority even in the competitive scene. The guy who was fanning as meta knight up there was having fun and he's generally considered to be the best Brawl player in the world. I'll play with two stocks, no items etc. usually, but if someone's like "yo we should play with items" I would just say "yeah okay".

Hey, that's exactly how I play!

I generally stick to Ike, Ness, and the occasional Snake for Brawl, and Robin, Villager, and yet again Ike in 4. I occasionally turn items on for fun, but I make sure I've got the real game-breakers like Gust Bellows, Poké Balls, and Bumpers off.

[smeeprocket]

I do not have fun playing with "Stop Having Fun Guys" who refuse to play outside of competitive rules, strict metagames, etc.

I don't know any of those people. They're a small minority even in the competitive scene. The guy who was fanning as meta knight up there was having fun and he's generally considered to be the best Brawl player in the world. I'll play with two stocks, no items etc. usually, but if someone's like "yo we should play with items" I would just say "yeah okay".

Hey, that's exactly how I play!

I generally stick to Ike, Ness, and the occasional Snake for Brawl, and Robin, Villager, and yet again Ike in 4. I occasionally turn items on for fun, but I make sure I've got the real game-breakers like Gust Bellows, Poké Balls, and Bumpers off.

ooh is that avatar from Chronotrigger?

[Tawa]

Magus? Yeah.
My other ones include:
Gandalf
Saruman
Merlin
Sauron
Dumbledore
The Black Wizard from FF1
The Monopoly Guy photoshopped to look like a wizard
The Happy Mask Salesman, specifically during the part of Majora's Mask where he's flipping out
Agent Smith with a wizard hat drawn on
The Sorcerer Belt Salesman illustration from the D&D 3.5 PHB
The Star Master from Earthbound
The default male Tactician sprite from FE:A
Pac-Man with a wizard's hat