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Author Topic: Roughnesschants, the City  (Read 9186 times)

UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2010, 01:11:44 pm »

I understand entirely.  But since windmill farms take up so much space (a reasonable 100 windmills is 30x30), don't you find it more efficient to put the windmills on the roofs of towers, so the area beneath can be used for surface farming instead?

And once you have the farms on the surface, might as well add another floor to the windmill tower so you can put the seed stockpile there.  And A floor for the farmers' living quarters of course. 
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Shadowfury333

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2010, 07:20:12 pm »

Hmm. Upon reflection, I realise that the biggest issue is that I modelled the fortress around squares. I'm thinking that circles would not only look better as a base, but also be more space-consuming (which seems to be a requirement for large projects. I think I'll rebuild with circles closer to the middle, and then collapse what I have so far. I would collapse first and slaughter half the population to help FPS, but at this point I think the population would go into tantrum spiral if I did that. Also, it might be more the stone than the population that is the issue, but I could probably at least double my FPS (25-30) by slaughtering a good 40 or so (of 77).

If no one has any other suggestions, I'm dropping the city tomorrow and rebuilding it. My dwarves should probably be happy enough with all the statues and jewel-encrusted beds they've been sleeping on to not mind half the population getting crushed to death.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 01:39:24 am by Shadowfury333 »
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Currently Building: Purplesaber (pit mine/anthill/80 z-level wound in the earth)

Former Projects: Roughnesschants(multi-level aboveground city)

Best summary of Dwarf Fortress:
I'm fairly certain every path in the game leads to some sort of massive execution.

Truean

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2010, 10:50:11 am »

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Retro Rocks. Figure out the fact that this game has severe limitations and he had to do what he did. Further, and I can't believe it still, the game is so CPU intensive that it will use every resource your computer has and fry it if you're not careful.

All of his "cheats" were responses to game limitations.

I admit its speculation, but Retro may be inspiration for the current underground cavern system. Fact is, "underground skyscrapers" aren't too damn inspiring. Ultimately, we need our dreamers and idea people.

People often mistake the ability to criticize for intelligence. Criticism is fun and easy but not smart per se. You could never make Undergrotto the way he did; you know it.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

scira

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2010, 10:59:25 am »

My suggestion is have every building be a building, with 4 walls, a door a floor and another floor a ceiling. If you expand the walls around the workshop a little then you can make mini stockpiles/store rooms, and a real megaproject would have these store rooms be their own separate room complete with a door.

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Retro

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2010, 12:26:29 pm »

I admit its speculation, but Retro may be inspiration for the current underground cavern system.

Thanks for sticking up for me, but I'm already afraid this thread is derailing enough on my account. And no, in no way did Undergrotto affect the cavern system :P I posted it in March and Toady had finished working on all that in December, I believe (and started a few months earlier)

Shadowfury, I agree with what a lot of the people in this thread have to say - if you really want to make it a city, you are going to have to expand and create individual buildings for separate purposes. Your current complex is neat but it's essentially one big building. Expansion is definitely the next step.

Shadowfury333

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2010, 12:41:20 pm »

Shadowfury, I agree with what a lot of the people in this thread have to say - if you really want to make it a city, you are going to have to expand and create individual buildings for separate purposes. Your current complex is neat but it's essentially one big building. Expansion is definitely the next step.

Yeah, I know. That was a concern for me when I started building the residential area and noticed it was difficult to tell the difference between it and the center area at a glance. The beauty of redoing it with circular walls is that it forces a connection between districts at only one point, and it nudges me strongly in the direction of making each area more individualized, since circles can't divide cleanly into rectangles, so the rectangles will need more strict defiinition. I will likely continue with the vertical aspect, but I'll make the industrial area have workshops in individual rooms, with nearby stockpiles, as opposed to a continuous floor.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 04:50:00 pm by Shadowfury333 »
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Currently Building: Purplesaber (pit mine/anthill/80 z-level wound in the earth)

Former Projects: Roughnesschants(multi-level aboveground city)

Best summary of Dwarf Fortress:
I'm fairly certain every path in the game leads to some sort of massive execution.

Truean

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  • Ok.... [sigh] It froze over....
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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2010, 01:47:10 pm »

Quote
Quote from: Retro on Today at 12:26:29 pm

    Shadowfury, I agree with what a lot of the people in this thread have to say - if you really want to make it a city, you are going to have to expand and create individual buildings for separate purposes. Your current complex is neat but it's essentially one big building. Expansion is definitely the next step.


Yeah, I know. That was a concern for me when I started building the residential area and noticed it was difficult to tell the difference between it and the center area at a glance. The beauty of redoing it with circular walls is that it forces a connection at only one point, and it nudges me strongly in the direction of making each area more individualized, since circles can't divide cleanly into rectangles, so the rectangles will need more strict defiinition. I will likely continue with the vertical aspect, but I'll make the industrial area have workshops in individual rooms, with nearby stockpiles, as opposed to a continuous floor.

Here I respectfully disagree. Circular walls are fine if you like. However, you can tell different areas apart without physical separation. It does take some creativity though. If you do separate buildings, try to constructively use the space in between the buildings. Statue gardens, swimming pools, outdoor farming, neat decorative parks. Do what you will, but please don't just make blocks (round or square) next to each other with one tile of space between them. I believe you will thank me later.

Color/Stone. If possible, I recommend you try to use the same color stone in the same areas. Further, consider going the modern hospital route: lay down stripes of the same color paint/floor tile/stone to show a path to a given area. Trauma is red line. Mental ward is green. Maternity is Pink. Etc. It constructively uses stone for visual representations of functions and paths to functions. The only downside is that it takes a little longer, but if you wanted the most time efficient route, you certainly haven't chosen it so far.

Ultimately you need to be thinking about balancing two things: function and beauty. You must decide a way to combine the two effectively. Things go wrong if you don't. Example, clearly I love Undergrotto, but it is too in favor of beauty rather than functionality. This is partially why it was killing Retro's PC/FPS. Again, I clearly have the utmost respect for Retro and his creation, but you have to work with what you have.

I'd consider doing what all designers and architects do: blueprints. Draw it out physically and by purpose before you build. "Why" does a certain area exist and how does it relate to others. An ounce of prevention is a pound of cure. Furthermore, it will help you stay focused if you get sidetracked. Law school has been the bane of my existence for some time now and I have awesome forts from years ago that I cannot remember crap about. Learn from my mistake; take notes.

All my suggestions are just that, suggestions. Take them or leave them as you wish.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Truean

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2010, 01:48:34 pm »

Quote
Quote from: Retro on Today at 12:26:29 pm

    Shadowfury, I agree with what a lot of the people in this thread have to say - if you really want to make it a city, you are going to have to expand and create individual buildings for separate purposes. Your current complex is neat but it's essentially one big building. Expansion is definitely the next step.


Yeah, I know. That was a concern for me when I started building the residential area and noticed it was difficult to tell the difference between it and the center area at a glance. The beauty of redoing it with circular walls is that it forces a connection at only one point, and it nudges me strongly in the direction of making each area more individualized, since circles can't divide cleanly into rectangles, so the rectangles will need more strict defiinition. I will likely continue with the vertical aspect, but I'll make the industrial area have workshops in individual rooms, with nearby stockpiles, as opposed to a continuous floor.

Here I respectfully disagree. Circular walls are fine if you like. However, you can tell different areas apart without physical separation. It does take some creativity though. If you do separate buildings, try to constructively use the space in between the buildings. Statue gardens, swimming pools, outdoor farming, neat decorative parks. Do what you will, but please don't just make blocks (round or square) next to each other with one tile of space between them. I believe you will thank me later.
Also, windows! Nothing separates an interior wall from an exterior one like having a line of windows. :)

Color/Stone. If possible, I recommend you try to use the same color stone in the same areas. Further, consider going the modern hospital route: lay down stripes of the same color paint/floor tile/stone to show a path to a given area. Trauma is red line. Mental ward is green. Maternity is Pink. Etc. It constructively uses stone for visual representations of functions and paths to functions. The only downside is that it takes a little longer, but if you wanted the most time efficient route, you certainly haven't chosen it so far.

Ultimately you need to be thinking about balancing two things: function and beauty. You must decide a way to combine the two effectively. Things go wrong if you don't. Example, clearly I love Undergrotto, but it is too in favor of beauty rather than functionality. This is partially why it was killing Retro's PC/FPS. Again, I clearly have the utmost respect for Retro and his creation, but you have to work with what you have.

I'd consider doing what all designers and architects do: blueprints. Draw it out physically and by purpose before you build. "Why" does a certain area exist and how does it relate to others. An ounce of prevention is a pound of cure. Furthermore, it will help you stay focused if you get sidetracked. Law school has been the bane of my existence for some time now and I have awesome forts from years ago that I cannot remember crap about. Learn from my mistake; take notes.

All my suggestions are just that, suggestions. Take them or leave them as you wish.
Logged
The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Shadowfury333

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2010, 04:53:05 pm »

Well, I've already started on the rebuild, but either way (squares or circles) I've given myself more space to work with, which should allow more flexibility. At this point, Most of the city has black walls, except the trade area, which is all marble. I'm going to be keeping the concept of good looking colors in mind this time. A lot of what became the first draft was from necessity.

Since I can't find a good monospace setup in notepad(for extended ASCII), I'm going to put design drafts here:

EDIT: I found that Lucida Console handles monospace properly for all characters, so I'm doing it in notepad now. I will update this post with the latest drafts as well. I recommend copy/pasting them into notepad and changing the font to Lucida Console, but for quick viewing they are here. All tiles are meant to match in-game tiles, though 'O' is for walls regardless of adjacent walls, since I need to know where to set the construction.

Merchant district *DONE* (Screenshots to come) (NOTE: Not proper size. Turns out I had 3 more tiles worth of space up/down):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Residential District:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Update: Well crap. 20 dwarves just died of thirst, another 20 died to a berserk woodcutter, and I've just started the new city. At least I still have 50 dwarves, even though they are all close to going nuts.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 12:08:33 am by Shadowfury333 »
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Currently Building: Purplesaber (pit mine/anthill/80 z-level wound in the earth)

Former Projects: Roughnesschants(multi-level aboveground city)

Best summary of Dwarf Fortress:
I'm fairly certain every path in the game leads to some sort of massive execution.

Shadowfury333

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Re: Roughnesschants, the budding arcology
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2010, 12:39:15 am »

Update bump: I've started building the new city and tearing down the old. Unfortunately, many died in the process(because I tore down the carpenter's shops without considering I need barrels for the stills, and I tore down the well), and I still need to use the remaining parts of the old city for shelter, but I'm tearing down what I can for now.

Here's the new map: A year has passed

UPDATE: I've finished the new city's residential district, and it is on DFMA.

UPDATE 2: I've finished the new city centre. You can see it on DFMA

UPDATE 3: I've finished the industrial and farming districts. At this point, all production that was in the old city has been rebuilt. It's up on DFMA

UPDATE 4: I've finished the second residential and the miscellaneous industrial districts. All possible production is now available, and the map is on DFMA

UPDATE 5: I've finished the Jail and Military districts, and given the Captain of the Guard his own house. You can see it on DFMA

UPDATE 6: The third residential district is up, along with some supplementary districts. There's also a baroness now, who has a nice house. You can see it on DFMA.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 12:46:47 am by Shadowfury333 »
Logged
Currently Building: Purplesaber (pit mine/anthill/80 z-level wound in the earth)

Former Projects: Roughnesschants(multi-level aboveground city)

Best summary of Dwarf Fortress:
I'm fairly certain every path in the game leads to some sort of massive execution.
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