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[Jetman123]

As it stands, it seems like deities are going to be more of a "worship it because it's superior to you but is still mortal" or "God that doesn't actually exist and looks after some aspect of life".

Since Dwarf Fortress is set in a fantasy setting and magic items and arcane stuff is planned, why not have the other side of the coin put in - _Divine_ magic?

The basic idea is that Gods are created based on belief, and that collective beleivers in Gods give them power. So in a new world, no gods exist - the civs raise them to power on their own.

They are naturally not omnipotent, but they are not mortal either. Depending on how much power they have, they may occasionally provide blessings or cursings. A god of war, for instance, could smite a few of your enemies if they attack you, or bless your troops and make them a little more resistant to harm. Naturally if your whole civilization majorly worships that god of war, it will be more powerful, but if only your site worships the god of war, he'll struggle to kill one soldier or help block a blow from a dagger. On the flip side, if you spurn a god (by having lots of worshippers but not enough temples, for instance) they might curse _you_ instead. Nothing major has to be put in here, just how happy the gods are with your civ and site and what each type can do.

More in detail, gods can provide magic to their followers, as well. While other types of magic are arcane and focus on manipulation, godly powers granted to followers (priests, usually) give the power to heal the sick and injured faster, bring harm upon their enemies, or help mothers give birth depending on which god your fortress follow. Fortresses can even follow more than one god.

Since medicine doesn't really exist in that time period, having a way to heal your dwarves might be a good addition. Mind, of course, that the enemy should be able to do this too to keep things balanced. Gives you a reason to target that enemy priest while he heals the enemy troops.  

[Neonivek]

I personally think that Divine power should be more hands off then hands on. The rewards for service should be entirely up to the diety and outside the direct ability to manipulate from the player. At its lowest levels it should be vague and unnoticable.

You also have to take into account that in all likelyness there are three types of religious icons in the game anyhow:
-Gods
-Forces (They are basically non-sentient beings)
-Powers (I think this is the term for any worshipped being who you can currently see)

After that there could be one more... regions... who may or may not actually count as a force.

As for healing... So VERY few religions in Dwarf Fortress are based off of life as it is, the idea of priests for healing doesn't apply and it doesn't make sense to have this video game steriotype of "All priests heal". Dwarves take this further since the only domains close to healing are Fortress and Pregnancy. In fact it makes sense for ordinary magic to allow healing within this setting.

*Yahn* It is too early to brainstorm... I am going to bed.

[Dasleah]

Seeing as Armok, God of Blood is so important to Dwarves, I'd like to see the 'traditional' Dwarven religion be pseudo-cannibalistic, where Priests demand sacrifice and vengeance. Of course, you have all these upstart pantheons that rabbit on and on about 'love thy neighbour' and 'turn the other cheek' - but it would be nice to have a stuffy old religious aristocracy who think the best way to solve a crisis of faith is a Hammer to the face.

[Silverionmox]

Please, they're gods, ancient beings with unfathomable power and inconceivable goals; they're not a high school nurse, who gives you a bandage and a pat on the back if you ask nicely. Neither are they a grocery clerk, who gives a discount on tins of beans if you haggle persistently enough. They're also above petty revenge, like the countess or the mayor who don't get their mandate fulfilled.

I understand your desire for an extra power source that is quite commonly applied that way in RPG's/fantasy, but resist the lure of the well-trodden path for a moment. Gods are much more impressive if their acts remain actual Acts of God: rare, mighty and incomprehensible.

[Duke 2.0]

quote:Originally posted by Silverionmox:
<STRONG>Please, they're gods, ancient beings with unfathomable power and inconceivable goals; they're not a high school nurse, who gives you a bandage and a pat on the back if you ask nicely. Neither are they a grocery clerk, who gives a discount on tins of beans if you haggle persistently enough. They're also above petty revenge, like the countess or the mayor who don't get their mandate fulfilled.

I understand your desire for an extra power source that is quite commonly applied that way in RPG's/fantasy, but resist the lure of the well-trodden path for a moment. Gods are much more impressive if their acts remain actual Acts of God: rare, mighty and incomprehensible.</STRONG>

Unless they are a god of petty revenge.

Sarah Smith is the diety of Petty Revenge. She takes the form of a female teenage dwarf in Highschool. She is often associated with Petty Revenge, Rumors and Cliques.

[Neonivek]

quote: Please, they're gods, ancient beings with unfathomable power and inconceivable goals

That depends, we know very little about gods at this point. They may actually just be a pattern of domains that may or may not be sentient that may require the combined powers of many through belief to affect the physical world.

Or they could just be quasi-powerful beings that benefit from worship and can turn it into power.

They could be beings brought into being by belief and the gods are actually amalgamation of the collective thoughts of people.

The Demons otherwise count as gods in some sense... If they are true gods or simply worshipped as gods is beyond me or anyone other then Toady.

[Willfor]

I believe in the wonderful effects of fiber, but that doesn't really make fiber any closer to attaining godhood. The deity has to come first, regardless of belief in it, and at its full power, or else why would people worship them? D&D has come in and brought vague gods, who are perfectly content to simply deliver spells to people. In some settings they are proactive, but they still for the most part simply are spell dispencers.

With DF, there is the possibility of getting real mythic quality. Look at all the pantheistic gods of our own world, and you will notice a pattern. People didn't pray to them expecting all of their troubles to melt away. They prayed to them to make sure that these awesome figures wouldn't toast them in their ongoing game of metaphysical politics and brutality. Sometimes the gods were on their side, but only when the gods wanted something done through them.

Divine magic is a nice concept and all, but it shouldn't be just any priest able to dispence them. Only the rare few who hit 100% devotion, or transients who were chosen to do the gods' bidding. And they should be doing what the gods want done, and not be just another tame tool you can use to stabilise your fort. If anything, they should be an unstable force that you have to bend to. Like a noble, but even more annoying if you don't please it. (and even more useful if you do please it)

[Neonivek]

"I believe in the wonderful effects of fiber, but that doesn't really make fiber any closer to attaining godhood"

In some dungeons and dragons settings, if that Fiber had a high Charisma rating. And 100 people believed Fiber was a god.. it would be one. In Exalted if the Fiber was a mortal and someone gave him Essence to 4 it would become a god instantly. It depends once again on the setting and what the gods really are.

quote: Divine magic is a nice concept and all, but it shouldn't be just any priest able to dispence them

I think that subtle divine magic should be dispensable by everyone. It should also have multiple purposes just like real life diety worship.

In otherwords: What better reason for a feist then the day you give part of your crops to the gods? If your crops just happen to yield more, then bonus.

Want to impress your friends and enemies? Build a Solid Gold Statue or Temple to your god. If the god so happens to make your weapons appear to swing harder, then bonus.

Have a starving population? Build a soup kitchen in the name of your god. If your poor just happen to be fed while your medicine men seem to be healing more, then bonus.

Pantheistic gods were very relaxed in most religions (that I am aware of) outside of mythology. Afterall Mythology has to be exciting and demonstrate what the god does. Other then that beyond sacrifices... most things done for gods also had duel benefits or aided the nobility. In Fact Sacrifices themselves had duel benefits also in telling other people that 'You have so much food, you can just burn it'. Of course, this definately would change for less stationary cultures.

Divine "Magic" in the overt form deserves other rulings that I am not going to touch upon. I don't think even a devout priest, unless he has a reason to be important to that god, should be able to do seriously overt actions like suddenly spawn a dragon to kill everyone. Though there should be enough to give reason for players to even bother with building up priest skills. (Adventurers I won't comment on... They are the ultimate heros/villains... it makes sense for them to get larger favors)

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by Neonivek:
<STRONG>"I believe in the wonderful effects of fiber, but that doesn't really make Want to impress your friends and enemies? Build a Solid Gold Statue or Temple to your god. If the god so happens to make your weapons appear to swing harder, then bonus.

Have a starving population? Build a soup kitchen in the name of your god. If your poor just happen to be fed while your medicine men seem to be healing more, then bonus.</STRONG>

Actually, this is a rather attractive suggestion that has that particular odour of Dwarfishness over it: That we don't build temples per se, but rather sanctidy places of labour as places of worship. Then working is a sort of worship, the higher the skill of the craftdwarf (etc) the more pleased the dwarf. And a natural boon of the god on question could be stats bonii as well as fey moods!

The more different sanctified places you have the more diluted is your worship. This could be intentional, as to make a generalist or particularist worship situation.

This seems to blend well with the Dwarf Fortress style, and to not require much rewrite of or additions to the existing model.

[Dae]

quote:Originally posted by Willfor:
<STRONG>I believe in the wonderful effects of fiber, but that doesn't really make fiber any closer to attaining godhood.</STRONG>

Because, you know, we don't live in a fantasy world.
I guess.

Well, I must admit I prefer the idea of powerful gods doing whatever they want, and you struggling in the middle.
Let's suppose two massively prayed gods are member of the same pantheon. They have lots of followers within your fortress.
And, for whatever reasons, they're at war against each other. And you have to deal with it.

Here, the concept of the divine power linked to the number of followers has got a gigantic potential.
First, it enables a possibility to get rid of a god (thus giving an interest in religious wars).
Secondly, it gives gods reasons to fight, apart from there sphere being opposites.
Thirdly, it allows you to personnally act in the war.

Let's say dwarves get happy thoughts from praying their god. The more they prey, the more they believe (though they have a basic degree of devotion). Some of the most devoted can become priests, acting like missionaries : talking people into their faith, little by little (the more competent and/or noble and/or popular the dwarf is, in whatever skill, the easier he will convert other dwarves).

Then, once a month/year, the sum of the percentage of devotion is added to a sort of "divine power jauge". I like the idea more than directly depending on the number of followers, because it allows a god to save his power in case of emergency (last hope attack or something like that), whereas if it's directly related on the number of followers, once the latter is low, the god wouldn't do much thing.
Here, a god lives as long as his power jauge isn't empty. It lowers when his followers are directly attacked by another god.

For instance, the god of fire decides to  burn the left eye of one/every follower of the god of leaves and birth - for fun. This requires using some of his power. The god of leaves and birth can protect his followers by using some of his own power - this will act as a skill check, the same way world gen battle are done. Even though he succeeded in protecting his believers, his power has decreased.
Yet, he decides to play dirty and successfully manages to curse every follower of the god of fire, who won't ever have children. At the scale of your fortress of course.
This way, when this generation dies, the god of fire's followers will be far less numerous.

Once every time, the same way moods are, a dwarf would claim he's a prophet of that-god-there. This could be false (he would be something like 100% believing) or true, in which case his god would use his power to give him skill points, protect him from other gods' attacks. This could be announced as moods are, or just happening in your back, but you would see if you check some of your dwarves "has attended a speach of a [that-god-there]'s follower", "has been converted to [that-god-there]'s faith".

When the situation is getting really ugly, borderline from civil war, you could order sacrifices to one or both gods, thus making their attack less likely and calming down their respective followers.

Damn, that's quite good. If you want to use these ideas Toady, I'd like you to. Except from you, I'll keep them for one of my own games  

[PTTG??]

I like the way this discussion is going- I could certainly see this in my Dwarf Fortress.

[Willfor]

I will concede that many very minor divine things would be as good as a few very large ones, depending on the world. Though the ability to have it both ways depending on factors at world generation would be pretty neat. Though i will respond to one point here:

quote:Pantheistic gods were very relaxed in most religions (that I am aware of) outside of mythology.

They were, yes. Except in DF, you are playing in a mythic world, and thus, they don't have to be relaxed at all. It would be cool to play in world where they were, just it would be cool to play in a world where they weren't. At least, in my opinion.

[Neonivek]

Well the reason I don't think gods have the ability to just not care about you and plow you over is simply because that eliminates the need or want for the "Play a god" V2 Arc. (I call the Future Goals the V2 Arcs...)

I always keep that in mind when I speak of the gods that eventually Toady may allow you to play them. I don't want them set up in such a way that would destroy that effect or create plot holes "Mommy, why didn't the god just kill everyone?"... "Ohh that is because he was being controlled by a player"

[ June 01, 2008: Message edited by: Neonivek ]

[Dae]

Well, considering how some players... most players actually act with their dwarves it'd be more "Mommy, why did the god kill everyone?"

Here with what I suggested the player, or any god, wouldn't kill everyone because he would risk the wrath of all the other ones who would probably ally.
Let's say to that, except he attacks directly, ie damaging, cursing, acting himself, other gods wouldn't be sure and may even not see he was the one acting.

That's why he could just give a huge stat bonus at some warrior to make him a conqueror if it serves him right, instead of just trying to kill everyone else in the army by liquifying their guts.
Because that might not please other gods.
This way, let's say the god of Moutains, Fortress and Weapons is mad at your fortress : he would create a cave-in (perhaps by designating some squares to be dug out, and you could see it or not) or make all your bolts wear out extremely fast when a siege breaks out.

[Neonivek]

That is kinda like an eternal Stalemate...

I got something cooking... Ill post it when my thoughts are clear