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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released  (Read 68393 times)

Vester

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #150 on: June 20, 2010, 08:00:53 am »

You know, that's actually pretty true. I mean, I'm sure Toady knew what he was doing when he updated creatures. I mean, something made out of, say, Slade or Adamantium would be unkillable by any normal means anyway.

I think the problem Jiri Petru has with the unkillable FB's isn't that they're in the game at all, but in how often they appear (which is, very often).

You are ignoring the actual reason why certain things are unkillable.

Things like Bronze Colossi are unkillable because of issues with how the game handles damage. That's it. We aren't dealing with giant untouchable demons made out of pure adamantine, we're dealing with things you can ostensibly harm.

You can sever parts off a bronze colossus (or presumably, many of the FBs that aren't "killable"), and even shatter parts of it. The issue is that the game does not deal with stacking damage very well, if at all, so it's seemingly impossible to sever (or otherwise utterly destroy) a part of any creature unless you manage to do it in a single blow. By analogy, if woodcutting worked like that in DF, you'd never be able to chop down a tree unless you somehow forged an axe that could do it in one strike.


The issue isn't that a beast you can't kill through normal means is a bad idea - that's a whole other debate. It also isn't, strictly speaking, a "balance" issue. The issue is that currently, the beasts are like that through unintended quirks and problems within the damage/wound model, and ones that result in problems in other, slightly less-obvious areas of combat as well.


It's helpful to consider why the game is exhibiting certain behavior instead of jumping to conclusions about whether or not it's good or intended - and, in fact, before arguing about it at all.

Actually, I thought the game didn't compound damage at all, which I accept is an overlooked problem (so far, which is the reason why an "inorganic" can end up with multiple red body parts, while not actually being any closer to dying than it was when it started the fight). I just wanted to say that certain things would be literally unkillable by normal means.
Encasing in ice/magma Always works. ;D I think ???

Yeah, thankfully. :)

"The Obsidian Solution. Even works on giant untouchable demons made out of pure adamantine."
I thought the demons evaporated all water within a few tiles of them, making it impossible to actually do magma+water=obsidian.

Well, yeah... it works in arena mode, though.  :P

EDIT: At least it should. I don't think you can get DEMON in arena mode.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 08:11:19 am by Vester »
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Talgor

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #151 on: June 20, 2010, 10:03:46 am »

Hm, am I the only one whose dwarfs suddendly refuse to eat prepared meals?

(the bug tracker won't let me register for some reason, can't check there, sorry)
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cephalo

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #152 on: June 20, 2010, 10:17:56 am »

I agree with those that believe that the combat issues need to be number one priority. That has prevented me from really diving into a new fort. Before I dedicate my time to such a significant project, I need to know how the rules are going to be finalized so I know what to build. I don't want to learn a system that is on the cusp of changing. I don't wanna build a fort suited to broken game mechanics.

I don't care about crash bugs. I can reload the game from autosave and then just not do what I did or whatever. How do I build my army? That's what I wanna know!
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cephalo

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #153 on: June 20, 2010, 10:20:11 am »

Hm, am I the only one whose dwarfs suddendly refuse to eat prepared meals?

(the bug tracker won't let me register for some reason, can't check there, sorry)

Once dwarves have to buy their food, they tend to avoid ones that are valuable. Are they starving themselves before eating them?
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steveman0

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #154 on: June 20, 2010, 10:22:17 am »

I agree with those that believe that the combat issues need to be number one priority. That has prevented me from really diving into a new fort. Before I dedicate my time to such a significant project, I need to know how the rules are going to be finalized so I know what to build. I don't want to learn a system that is on the cusp of changing. I don't wanna build a fort suited to broken game mechanics.

I don't care about crash bugs. I can reload the game from autosave and then just not do what I did or whatever. How do I build my army? That's what I wanna know!

I feel the same.  Rather than stomping around in a hissy fit I decided that I'm going to wait until Marksdwarfs are fixed so that the key point of my defense, the battlements, will work properly next time I play.  Until then I will just stick to other games or perhaps (gasp!) go outside.

If some bug is a game killer than just relax and wait until it gets fixed.  I'm sure you can find something else to occupy your time until then especially if Toady keeps up at the pace he is with knocking out one thing after another.
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Talgor

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #155 on: June 20, 2010, 12:08:13 pm »

Once dwarves have to buy their food, they tend to avoid ones that are valuable. Are they starving themselves before eating them?

I'm still with only a mayor, so it's all communistic and nobody has to pay for anything. I just got a "hunting for vermin" from a dwarf who's only about 20 steps away from a stockpile full of prepared meals. And there have been a lot of "cancels Give Food: No food available"
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paedansu

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #156 on: June 20, 2010, 12:14:09 pm »

Funny story about forgotten beasts.

I was playing last night trying to figure out how to kill my forgotten beast in my caverns.  It was a steam monster with 3 horns.  Either way I activated my military and sent it to kill the bastard and one of my lowly recruits killed the beast just by punching it according to the battle report.  I thought that was kinda funny and strange so I had to share :).

The first forgotten beast I ever encountered died to just one or two blows from a woodcutter's axe. I didn't know about battle reports at the time so I can't be certain there wasn't just some insanely lucky decapitating hit, but I'm thinking the same randomization that leads to unkillable baddies can also lead to tissue paper baddies?

(Don't remember exactly what the beast I encountered was made of, but now that I think about it mine might have been made of steam too. Maybe steam monsters die when you blow on them? :P )

edit: whee grammar!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 01:37:25 pm by paedansu »
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Old-one-eye

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #157 on: June 20, 2010, 01:37:26 pm »

Embarking on freezing biome with aquifer  :D
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forsaken1111

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #158 on: June 20, 2010, 01:42:34 pm »

Once dwarves have to buy their food, they tend to avoid ones that are valuable. Are they starving themselves before eating them?

I'm still with only a mayor, so it's all communistic and nobody has to pay for anything. I just got a "hunting for vermin" from a dwarf who's only about 20 steps away from a stockpile full of prepared meals. And there have been a lot of "cancels Give Food: No food available"
Did you accidentally forbid the food by any chance? Like when area-forbidding things?
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silverskull39

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #159 on: June 20, 2010, 01:43:40 pm »

not sure if anyone else is getting this, but my dwarves are refusing to dump items in this version for some reason. got 12 idling dwarves,a all with all sorts of hauling enabled, a massive, empty garbage zone, a lot of stone designated to be dumped, and everyone's ignoring it.
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Dwarf fortress threads can sound so.... unethical
it would be unethical if this wasn't the bay12 forums
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forsaken1111

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #160 on: June 20, 2010, 01:46:31 pm »

not sure if anyone else is getting this, but my dwarves are refusing to dump items in this version for some reason. got 12 idling dwarves,a all with all sorts of hauling enabled, a massive, empty garbage zone, a lot of stone designated to be dumped, and everyone's ignoring it.
Do you have them set to ignore refuse outside? It is on by default...
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silverskull39

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #161 on: June 20, 2010, 01:49:46 pm »

not sure if anyone else is getting this, but my dwarves are refusing to dump items in this version for some reason. got 12 idling dwarves,a all with all sorts of hauling enabled, a massive, empty garbage zone, a lot of stone designated to be dumped, and everyone's ignoring it.
Do you have them set to ignore refuse outside? It is on by default...

.....aaand now I feel stupid. Thanks, forsaken XD

in other news, my dwarves will not use obsidian for anything but swords, and there isn't an entry for it in the stone menu. Is this another oversight on my part, or is it simply absent for no good reason?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 01:51:36 pm by silverskull39 »
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Dwarf fortress threads can sound so.... unethical
it would be unethical if this wasn't the bay12 forums
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Now back to your regularly scheduled thread derailment.

G-Flex

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #162 on: June 20, 2010, 01:51:11 pm »

You know, that's actually pretty true. I mean, I'm sure Toady knew what he was doing when he updated creatures. I mean, something made out of, say, Slade or Adamantium would be unkillable by any normal means anyway.

I think the problem Jiri Petru has with the unkillable FB's isn't that they're in the game at all, but in how often they appear (which is, very often).

You are ignoring the actual reason why certain things are unkillable.

Things like Bronze Colossi are unkillable because of issues with how the game handles damage. That's it. We aren't dealing with giant untouchable demons made out of pure adamantine, we're dealing with things you can ostensibly harm.

You can sever parts off a bronze colossus (or presumably, many of the FBs that aren't "killable"), and even shatter parts of it. The issue is that the game does not deal with stacking damage very well, if at all, so it's seemingly impossible to sever (or otherwise utterly destroy) a part of any creature unless you manage to do it in a single blow. By analogy, if woodcutting worked like that in DF, you'd never be able to chop down a tree unless you somehow forged an axe that could do it in one strike.


The issue isn't that a beast you can't kill through normal means is a bad idea - that's a whole other debate. It also isn't, strictly speaking, a "balance" issue. The issue is that currently, the beasts are like that through unintended quirks and problems within the damage/wound model, and ones that result in problems in other, slightly less-obvious areas of combat as well.


It's helpful to consider why the game is exhibiting certain behavior instead of jumping to conclusions about whether or not it's good or intended - and, in fact, before arguing about it at all.

Actually, I thought the game didn't compound damage at all, which I accept is an overlooked problem (so far, which is the reason why an "inorganic" can end up with multiple red body parts, while not actually being any closer to dying than it was when it started the fight). I just wanted to say that certain things would be literally unkillable by normal means.

As far as I can tell, you're right and it doesn't, hence "if at all".

The weirdest thing to consider is how the game should treat creatures made out of gaseous (or similar) substances, like steam or fire. How exactly DO you fight something like that? Fan away the material until it gets disassociated enough to waft away?
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forsaken1111

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #163 on: June 20, 2010, 01:53:41 pm »

The weirdest thing to consider is how the game should treat creatures made out of gaseous (or similar) substances, like steam or fire. How exactly DO you fight something like that? Fan away the material until it gets disassociated enough to waft away?
Well if you're a dwarf, you take a swig of plump helmet wine, grab your fungiwood training axe, pull your kitten leather helm firmly onto your head and GO KILL THE FUCK OUT OF IT.

It doesn't need to make sense.
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Daenyth

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.08 Released
« Reply #164 on: June 20, 2010, 01:55:54 pm »

Toady stop releasing so fast! Hard to keep up with you for packaging ;P
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