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[Africa]

I've been genning worlds in 31.06 and 31.08 now that I know the latter is out, and it seems civilizations are having a lot of trouble surviving worldgen - especially if they're goblins. In one of my forts on a "smaller region" in 06, there was allegedly a dwarf civ (mine) and a human civ (according to the "neighbors" tab at embark selection) but the only sign I ever saw of outside life was two smallish migrant waves (total bringing me to 22). No caravans ever came after several years in. Then I genned a mildly edited smaller region in 08 and this time there were humans, dwarves and elves present but no goblins. Same result with vanilla parameters. Currently genning a medium world with vanilla 08, and it's chugging along (working with a netbook here...hence the tiny world preference) but I've already seen goblin towers.

So why wouldn't goblins ever be surviving worldgen in my smaller worlds? Any parameters I can tweak to make them survive? Is this a common bug? Also, does having a smaller world help keep FPS up?

[smjjames]

I've been genning worlds in 31.06 and 31.08 now that I know the latter is out, and it seems civilizations are having a lot of trouble surviving worldgen - especially if they're goblins. In one of my forts on a "smaller region" in 06, there was allegedly a dwarf civ (mine) and a human civ (according to the "neighbors" tab at embark selection) but the only sign I ever saw of outside life was two smallish migrant waves (total bringing me to 22). No caravans ever came after several years in. Then I genned a mildly edited smaller region in 08 and this time there were humans, dwarves and elves present but no goblins. Same result with vanilla parameters. Currently genning a medium world with vanilla 08, and it's chugging along (working with a netbook here...hence the tiny world preference) but I've already seen goblin towers.

So why wouldn't goblins ever be surviving worldgen in my smaller worlds? Any parameters I can tweak to make them survive? Is this a common bug? Also, does having a smaller world help keep FPS up?

I'm having the opposite, my goblins survive quite well, and I'm trying to get rid of them or get them conquered.

[SpacemanSpiff]

I've been trying to generate medium regions with strong goblin civilizations (after 200 years) in 30.08, and suitable maps are few and far between.  Goblins seem to do best when they can colonize a central mountain range, and then start expanding outwards to whack local elves.

Each time I generate a map I scroll around it to see if there are several goblin forts near each other.  If so, I accept it, then load it up in legends mode and go to the historical map view to see how they've expanded.  If that looks promising I finally load it in fortress mode to check out the biomes.  I've probably spent 3 hours on this to get two promising worlds - but then I'm looking for untamed jungles with no aquifers near goblin forts, so I'm pretty picky

Also, I noticed that pure-goblin areas tend to be just wilderness, if not outright calm.  In my latest world I can overlay their area-of-influence on the local map, and see that their influence stops EXACTLY at the point where the biomes change from "wilderness" to "untamed wilds".  Pretty cool.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Not with goblins, but i've been having this problem with Kobolds I think.  They all seem to die out after making too many enemies.

[Patchy]

Every civ seems to die quite regularly in my gens. Got plenty of space for the civs to start in, there is numerous ruins all over the worlds.

From what I can tell with my experimenting, the monsters and stuff in the caves got a lot more hardcore, not jus the megabeasts/titans. Everything is out to destroy civilization. I found that drastically reducing the number of caves you have in the map helps the civ survival rate tremedously, but at the cost of the kobolds. I've still yet to find that magical number of caves that'll let the civs survive more often than not and still have a couple kobold civs runnin around.

[Mandaril]

You just have bad luck. The world seems to be a lot more dangerous place for civilizations, right now. They seem to die very easily, so if you miss some civilization, re-generate a new world.

Just remember, not all civilizations may be available at all parts of the world map. I suspect they have a "reach", most civilizations not being able to reach vulcano-created islands for example.

[palsch]

It might be worth stopping worldgen early on. The civilisations will be less developed but that also means they are still around.

[Pistolero]

Set your savagery mesh to 8x8 and crank up the 0-20 range to be around 3x weight. Should get you plenty of goblins, but zero elves. Oh, and the reverse if you want to kill off goblins. Set 80-100 to be 3-4x more common, lots of elves, and goblins get slaughtered.

[Africa]

Set your savagery mesh to 8x8 and crank up the 0-20 range to be around 3x weight.

This seems like helpful advice; can anyone translate it into English?

Also what's this about megabeasts being too hardcore - any way to tone them down? Are they killing off all the civs in worldgen? (I never go in legends mode)

[Ze Spy]

Toady went too far with the megabeast and made them way too OP in this version , unlike the last version(40D) when Megabeasts are just weak Worms

[Internet Kraken]

I don't get why everyone thinks thinks civs die out to easily. To me, it makes perfect sense that some civs will die if you generate a small world. There isn't nearly enough room for all of the civilizations and megabeasts to occupy without killing each other. With the exception of my custom civilization, I've never had a problem with civs dying out during world gen. If you want more civs to survive, generate larger worlds.

[Pistolero]

Set your savagery mesh to 8x8 and crank up the 0-20 range to be around 3x weight.

This seems like helpful advice; can anyone translate it into English?

Also what's this about megabeasts being too hardcore - any way to tone them down? Are they killing off all the civs in worldgen? (I never go in legends mode)

In your world generation options, go down the list till you find 'savagery mesh size', change it to the largest possible (which may not be 8x8 sorry, it depends on world size). Then adjust the 'savagery weighted range 0-20' to 3, and all the other 'savagery weighted range' to 1. If you still have trouble getting goblins to survive, set 0-20 even higher. You'll produce a world with very few savage areas, which you are trying to do because goblins don't do well in savage areas. Not sure if they will refuse to expand into them or whether the wildlife keeps them under control, or if there is some other reason, but low savagery = lots of goblins.

Elves on the other hand, prefer the wilderness, so you'll be taking away a lot of potential elf habitat if you take away all the high savagery areas.

It seems like it's really about producing enough areas for them to expand into so that they survive if they lose an outpost or three to megabeasts or wars. Elves need savage forests, goblins need calm mountains, humans need hills/plains and dwarves need mountains. I played around with my parameters to ensure there is enough of each, which was actually quite tricky considering the other things I wanted from the world (lots of waterfalls and volcanos with sand, fresh water, and sedimentary flux within a regular embark size, and minimal aquifers without just turning them off).

Now I get the terrain features I want with minimal rejections, but all the civilizations survive to 1050 on a 65x65 world only about half the time. Dwarves will frequently overrun all the goblin or elf outposts. Without the adjustments made for the terrain features, elves would be doing the same, but since forests are hard to come by in such a world, I had to adjust every other parameter I could to help them survive. Forest level rainfall is 2.25x more common, forest level drainage is 10x more common, high savagery is 3x more common, etc etc.

A world that was less insistent on having tons of volcanos with sedimentary layers in the same 4x4 embark should have no trouble getting all civs to survive worldgen if you adjust the parameters appropriately to provide each race with plenty of terrain to their liking. In fact with some more tweaking I could probably increase my races survival rates but as it stands it takes me just a few seconds to generate a world and if someone got wiped out I just generate another. Usually get one where each civ is reasonably healthy within a few tries, although sometimes I go with it even if one or two of them only have one outpost remaining.

[stormsaber]

... [random useful info] ...

Could you post the entirety of your world gen parameters?

The last-but-one world I genned I didn't get any goblins at all. (Though I was playing with Civ Forge, which I found ridiculously, over-poweringly bugged. I don't use civ forge anymore.) The last world I genned didn't give me a single seige, ambush or thief. I'm now at >100 dwarves on an awesomely-defended volcano, still waiting gamely for my first opponents. I've looked at legends at the world does *have* several goblin civs, but maybe they're not close enough or something - I'm in the middle of the map on a *massive* island surrounded by sea; the island has another Elven civ on it and is connected to the mainland by a tiny straight of land - but it is connected. As a result I have tons of caravans; several arrive together in many cases! But no invaders. (Tho its not vanilla, it's 'Dwarven Chocolate' mod. Lesson learnt: I'm never ever again going to use a mod that changes the races in any significant way - world gen is just to damn fragile for that.)

In any case, all of your other world features seem exactly what I look for in a world - I love waterfalls and volcanos, and I hate aquifers and I'm fairly saddened by how hard the former are to find compared to the latter. I also like straight cliffs.

Thanks in advance!

Daniel

[Pistolero]

Hmm, I'm using something different now. I never get volcanos+waterfalls on the same embark map btw, just the same region map. Although it seems like it should come up eventually, nothing to stop it, just need a massive alignment of the stars for worldgen to drop a volcano right on the edge of a mountain range then run a pair of rivers past it.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59969.msg1349430#msg1349430 has an old set of parameters although I don't think it's ideal.

New parameters, you might find them interesting still:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Created in DF v0.31.08.

[WORLD_GEN]
   [TITLE:NEW]
   [SEED:1007682789]
   [HISTORY_SEED:2903508663]
   [NAME_SEED:1055879430]
   [CREATURE_SEED:2767106804]
   [DIM:17:33]
   [EMBARK_POINTS:1274]
   [END_YEAR:1050]
   [BEAST_END_YEAR:75:80]
   [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
   [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:1]
   [ELEVATION:99:400:1500:3200]
   [RAINFALL:0:100:100:100]
   [TEMPERATURE:40:60:100:100]
   [DRAINAGE:0:100:100:100]
   [VOLCANISM:0:100:3200:3200]
   [SAVAGERY:0:100:100:100]
   [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [RAIN_FREQUENCY:3:1:1:1:5:1]
   [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:3:1:5:1:1:1]
   [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:3:1:1:1:1:5]
   [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [TITAN_NUMBER:1]
   [TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:80:0:100000]
   [DEMON_NUMBER:20]
   [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:1:10:20]
   [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:3:30:60]
   [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:1]
   [PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:1]
   [COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
   [VOLCANO_MIN:15]
   [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
   [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:150]
   [RIVER_MINS:20:20]
   [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
   [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
   [SUBREGION_MAX:2750]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:1]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:100]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:100]
   [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
   [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:15]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:50]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
   [LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:3]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:3]
   [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:5]
   [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:1]
   [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:1]
   [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:1]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
   [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:7]
   [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:15000]
   [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
   [ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]

Pretty sure you'll want to adjust [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:50] to a smaller number and random seed of course.

Less concerned with running water and sedimentary stone now, just looking for volcanos+sand+flux in a 2x2, even if the flux is marble since hematite is as common as... dirt around volcanos. I think that seed has one embark with marble+volcano+sand in a 2x2 and another in a 2x3. If you use your own seed be prepared to gen a few times as civs can die pretty easily on these parameters, even though gen ends at year 75.

I got a pretty awesome 3x2 embark on these parameters with a tree covered valley resting behind two mountains with desert steppes leading up like a pyramid out the front and a tiny (2 tiles wide) pass between the mountains linking them up. One of the mountains was a volcano, the magma pipe stopped at ground level but the crater extended WAY up and opened out over the valley in a semi circle. I had to dig a precarious path for the elf and dwarf caravans around and through the volcano since they arrived on top of it and it was so sheer there was no path. Flux and iron etc. The problem? Not a drop of water on the surface and the first cavern was 100 zlevels underground. My guys started dying of thirst because they got bruised ribs from a camel kick and suchlike, which clearly prevented them from getting a beer

I'm just having trouble getting elves to survive in such a small world and get a terrifying forest at the same time, while also getting my flux+volcano 2x2 (in the forest). I'm thinking smaller forests might do it, so the elves can have a regular one and I can have an evil one, rather than having one huge elf forest or one huge evil forest on each map.