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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1561916 times)

SirPenguin

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #180 on: July 04, 2010, 02:20:03 pm »

I saw your post about the "pendulum" on SA, and honestly I think that's more projection than observation.  You're jumping at devlog shadows (no offense).

Seems like you're trying to reason my arguments away with some rather silly conclusions - I mean honestly, projection? I'm glad you didn't take anything past General Psychology, else I'd really be in trouble! I can assure you I'm not nearly as invested in this game as to have to rationalize anything I feel about it. I hate to use what clearly feels like a "GameFAQs" argument, but it's fact that Toady has been slower than ever in fixing this release. Here we are, 3 months later, and I can make a very long list of problems that prevent me from playing the game. Compare that to how quickly he was able to fix up prior releases, especially in the last 3 years, and I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that I'm excited that the game seemingly will be playable soon. I realize now I came across as inflammatory, and I apologize for that. It's frustrating to watch entire communities die out because of a badly supported release, and this isn't made any easier after reading the droves of Toady apologists on this forum (even when Toady himself is super reasonable about everything). I guess that's why I put an edge to my post.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #181 on: July 04, 2010, 02:31:33 pm »

Seems like you're trying to reason my arguments away with some rather silly conclusions - I mean honestly, projection? I'm glad you didn't take anything past General Psychology, else I'd really be in trouble! I can assure you I'm not nearly as invested in this game as to have to rationalize anything I feel about it.

Rationalizing may not have been the right term, but sensationalism definitely was.  You're putting way too much stock in indicators that are ultimately superficial, e.g. trying to extrapolate Toady's productivity from numbers games, or claiming that communities have dropped dead because a couple people threw tantrums.

I hate to use what clearly feels like a "GameFAQs" argument, but it's fact that Toady has been slower than ever in fixing this release. Here we are, 3 months later, and I can make a very long list of problems that prevent me from playing the game. Compare that to how quickly he was able to fix up prior releases, especially in the last 3 years, and I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.

It was an 18-month release cycle that revamped many of the game's fundamental systems, so it shouldn't be surprising that it's taking longer than ever to fix all the problems.  That doesn't mean he's working more slowly.  I'm not saying I'm totally happy with the course of development, but given the state of the game on April 1st, I'm very happy with the progress that's been made in the last three months.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that I'm excited that the game seemingly will be playable soon.

I can agree with that.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 02:44:37 pm by Footkerchief »
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #182 on: July 04, 2010, 02:36:37 pm »

I hate to use what clearly feels like a "GameFAQs" argument, but it's fact that Toady has been slower than ever in fixing this release. Here we are, 3 months later, and I can make a very long list of problems that prevent me from playing the game. Compare that to how quickly he was able to fix up prior releases, especially in the last 3 years, and I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.

It was an 18-month release cycle that revamped many of the game's fundamental systems.  Of course it's taking longer than ever to fix all the problems.  That doesn't mean he's working more slowly.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that I'm excited that the game seemingly will be playable soon.

I can agree with that.

Speaking of dropping the ball, it was either release it in a mostly playable state or make people wait even more. Toady also got caught up with the SDL merge since that took a while.

Still, the community has found bugs faster and more thoroughly than a smaller testing team would since players do all kinds of things and have more time on hand than a paid tester. People even did testing around and found solutions to some of the stuff.

As for list of problems keeping you from playing the game, why don't you list them?..... I'm sure military is high on the list, but Toady is working on it piece by piece.
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Urist McOverlord

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #183 on: July 04, 2010, 03:47:22 pm »

On the subject of moving fortress parts:

Will we be able to put workshops/stockpiles/etc. on them?
Will this effect how constructions are currently supported and what happens to them?
     Example: can I link bridges together to form a path that extends slowly in the shape of a spiral towards the inner sanctum.
Can we control the time it takes to do these?
What kinds of transformations will be possible? Piston-dropping platforms? Winched systems? Gear-rotations?
Will there be new methods to get power? Or will we still be limited to the previous?
Can power be acquired by moving constructions?
     Example: Can I create a dwarf-powered generator powered by my main hallways rocking back and forth as dwarves walk through it?
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Quatch

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #184 on: July 04, 2010, 04:02:52 pm »

[..Offtopic ranting..]

Maybe you could take your offtopic thoughts somewhere where else. Getting a new post notification is much sadder when I find it is your material.

With the faster release cycle, is it possible to notify us if we can re-use our init files?
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #185 on: July 04, 2010, 04:09:07 pm »

Maybe you could take your offtopic thoughts somewhere where else. Getting a new post notification is much sadder when I find it is your material.

It wasn't off-topic, or even ranting, really.

With the faster release cycle, is it possible to notify us if we can re-use our init files?

DF already includes file_changes.txt, which tells you whether changes have been made to the init format.
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Syff

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #186 on: July 04, 2010, 05:41:28 pm »

Bug-fixes and easy improvements come first, obviously, but I really hope that Toady is able to find some time to make some headway towards some of the loftier goals on the list before too long.

The long development cycle of 0.31.x seems to have left a number of people jaded and skeptical of the project's direction and potential, and I'd really love if Toady could re-establish some of that lost confidence.  Then again, nay-sayers will be nay-sayers, and it's probably foolish to hope that they'll "come around".
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Capntastic

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #187 on: July 04, 2010, 06:25:18 pm »

What will happen in a world where one man rises up to realize he can enjoy Dwarf Fortress and Goblin Camp simultaneously for different, or even similar reasons.

Can love blossom on the battlefield?

EDIT:  Hopefully I'll be able to mod in Tactical Espionage Action
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FuzzyDoom

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #188 on: July 04, 2010, 08:06:29 pm »

I shall be following this topic! Now to think of a question...

...

I've got nothing. Good job so far Toady! Don't listen to what SirPenguin is saying. Take all the time in the world. It's YOUR game, and you're spending YOUR time developing it so that people like us can enjoy it. If he (or anybody else) doesn't like how long it's taking then too bad, they just need to chill out and wait.
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Dakk

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #189 on: July 04, 2010, 08:13:42 pm »

I've been lurking around this topic for so long now, without posting anything. Really happy adventurer mode is finally getting some love :D

Sorry if I'm sorta late, but here goes: On moving fortress parts, would things like walls like the ones in indiana movies be possible? Such as rotating and moving walls that you can build, select and link to some mechanism and asign a function to them, as to create crushing wall traps, rotating secret doors, and whatnot, or the moving parts will all be predefined like the contructions on the uild mode?
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Urist Imiknorris

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #190 on: July 04, 2010, 08:14:07 pm »

What will happen in a world where one man rises up to realize he can enjoy Dwarf Fortress and Goblin Camp simultaneously for different, or even similar reasons.

Can love blossom on the battlefield?

EDIT:  Hopefully I'll be able to mod in Tactical Espionage Action

Please tell me this is what the next DF Talk is about.
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Eduren

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #191 on: July 05, 2010, 01:35:11 am »

Awesome, new FotF. I wonder how many posts we can get to...  ::)
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #192 on: July 05, 2010, 03:03:44 am »

Honestly... I don't know if I can wait for all those additions in the development page.

Heck the one I am looking forward to the most was in the development page before this one.

I am looking forward to a few of them. Though I see people are taking the "roles" to litterally/seriously when to me they seem to just be titles to represent areas where the Adventurer mode can be expanded upon rather then strict Adventurer roles.
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isitanos

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #193 on: July 05, 2010, 03:27:20 am »

The new dev page is indeed an awesome read. Here's my spontaneous and rather long review of it (rather of some parts of it), with the suggestions that come to mind.

-----------------------

Quote
Basic Adventure Mode Skills
  • Hunting/tracking animals
    • Everybody leaving trails of information that can be tracked with the appropriate skill
This would be a really novel feature in an adventure game, I'm looking forward to it.
Quote
   
  • Raising livestock
  • Eggs, chickens and associated objects
   
They're not exactly livestock, but I'd love to raise dragons or giant eagles from their eggs :) . I suppose raiding the nest and facing the angry female would be a nice challenge. Or just buy the eggs from the elves or some smugglers.
Quote
Adventurer Role: Hero
  • Combat flow    
       
    • Ability to jump up on and ride opponents if they are large enough (can happen to you too of course)
  All the combat stuff is good, but this is excellent, especially the fact it can happen to you. I can imagine a small gnome jumping around on your shoulders and head and stabbing you all over with a tiny dagger while you flail your arms around helplessly.
Quote
Adventurer Role: Thief
  • Bounties and being hunted    
       
    • No automatic recognition that you have stolen an item        
    • People should notice when items are missing and raise an alert        
    • Strangers found around town when crime is suspected should be stopped and searched        
    • Your identity/appearance should be remembered for a time if you are seen in an area        
    • If your identity/appearance is associated to an alert over a crime, somebody responsible in the entity should put a bounty on you if appropriate for the entity        
    • You should leave tracking information and it should keep track of the last many people you have talked to        
    • Entity warriors and other adventurers should following your tracking information        
This is the thieving/crime system I've always dreamed of, I don't know of any game that even came close. Pushing this just a step further, setting up evidence so that someone else gets accused in your place (dropping the bloody dagger in his garbage, money under his bed, or whatever), then fearing as the legendary investigator tracks one by one the clues that lead to you, would just be an amazing experience.
Quote
  • Concealing your identity
  • Being able to assume a different name        
  • Changing your clothes should affect the appearance tracking        
  • Covering your face/hair with hoods, masks, etc. should affect appearance tracking        
  • Skills for changing voice and mannerisms convincingly        
    • If you screw up, you can be regarded as a suspicious stranger, which is worse than being a regular stranger
Having to observe and copy people's behavior so the disguise works would be interesting. For instance, if you infiltrate a temple but don't notice that people never walk on the engraved sacred floor in front of a particular statue, and walk there while being seen, you should immediately look suspicious.
Quote
  • Artifacts    
Any plans in the close future for randomly granting rare special effects to some artifacts ? Since the eventual magic framework is not even in sight, it would be nice to have some effects that tie to the current game mechanics : attracting undead, spawning a demon, horrifying the elves for some reason or scaring some types of enemies, and so on.
They could also be associated with diseases/plagues or curses from the night creatures theme. Or with spheres and gods. Associating with gods would be something you could something you could probably code up in a half-day, if it's just an initial implementation for flavor : from time to time a dwarf makes an artifact « to the glory of XYZ ».
Quote
Adventurer Role: Explorer
  • Lands and beastiary    
       
    • More overland map features and local variations        
Will you keep improving the underground in the short term, and add incentives to dig down and face the dangers to find useful stuff? I'd love if you could bring back cave rivers, and get them to repopulate (and have creatures not get stuck or suicide in waterfalls), together with surface rivers. Some rivers could disappear underground and resurface elsewhere, as happens in real life.
A sea monster swimming up the river and attacking you from either underground or the surface would be a Fun surprise.
Quote
    • Scrap good/evil lands for lands with more variety
And associate them with artifacts from time to time (i.e. The artifact is a mobile influence sphere) for amusing effects ;) .
Quote
Hauling Improvements
  • Minecarts    
       
    • Wooden, stone-carved and metal tracks        
    • Can be filled like stockpiles and moved between destinations
Being able to make slopes of various grades would be interesting, both to build rails on them (so that in one direction, the cart doesn't need to be pulled), and to get objects or creatures to slide down them at various speeds depending on the grade and the amount of soap you put on it. A trap that sends goblins on a slippery spiral all the way down to the magma would definitely be fun, but the same mechanism would make for a nice garbage dump, etc.
Quote
Workshop Material Use and Specific Object Construction
  • Ability to order the construction of a specific item or decoration of item in complete detail     
On this topic, it would be nice if the current lists for object/material selection allowed for sorting by quality and remembered those settings, so we can easily build 20 beds without wasting the masterwork ones on peasants. Filtering by typing as on the job manager screen would also be welcome...
Quote
Improved Mechanics
  • Better traps    
Looking forward to this.
Quote
Job Priorities
  • Rework dwarf AI to support job priorities    
  • Rework job assignment process to support priorities set on dwarves or for specific important jobs
The day this is implemented is gonna be a great day. This should also extend to designations, maybe with a similar interface as that for delimiting trafic zones : i.e. « this zone should be mined out asap !!! ».
Small related request that shouldn't require changing the whole pathfinding : can digging dwarves (and similar jobs) look 3 or 4 tiles away from them for the next batch of tiles to mine out, instead of immediately running a fortress-wide search ?
Quote
Military
  • Improved sieges    
    • Coming up with a plan to overcome pathing obstacles to reach fortress innards        
      • Ability to dig (optionally, default on)          
      • Ability to build bridges/ramps          
      • Ability to use grappling hooks/ladders/climb
    • Learning from mistakes if first attempted assault plan fails badly        
      • For instance, if many siegers are killed, caged, etc. in a given hallway, they shouldn't generally go that way again, even if that means building/climbing/digging
Very much looking forward to all this. If your fortress is famous, the invaders might be well informed by travelers' tales of the fortress' general layout. Another way for a fortress to fall (very common in history) would be a traitor inside : either in disguise (nice tie-in with the thieving theme), or a beggar that you welcomed at the fortress, or a dwarf that cooperate with the enemy because of money, hate/misery/madness, ideology, or because they hold a loved one hostage. The traitor could do anything from giving info about the fortress layout and location of artifacts and secret documents, opening the door(s), pulling various levers, starting a fight for dubious pretexts to start a tantrum spiral, poisoning the water supply, digging at the wrong place, and so forth and so on.

Might I suggest allowing fortress mode dwarves to build small 1-tile boats that they can move by rowing or with poles, and that they use for fishing and crossing dangerous water. Villains could make them too, to cross or bridge moats and rivers, but in heavy current it would be dangerous.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 11:19:03 pm by isitanos »
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #194 on: July 05, 2010, 03:54:06 am »

The new dev page is indeed an awesome read. Here's my spontaneous and rather long review of it (rather of some parts of it), with the suggestions that come to mind.

[omitted due to fuckhuge post]
Don't green things that aren't questions. That just causes a hitch in the system for Toady.
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