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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1551573 times)

tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #585 on: August 03, 2010, 03:03:22 pm »

Two or three meters still sounds pretty reasonable. One meter wouldn't make much sense, because you can't even fit a real life dwarf in a one meter cube, let alone a human diplomat.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 03:06:11 pm by tfaal »
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I still think that the whole fortress should be flooded with magma the moment you try dividing by zero.
This could be a handy way of teaching preschool children mathematics.

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #586 on: August 03, 2010, 03:07:18 pm »

That's a bit more sprawl than I expected, though I guess part of that is because presumably the farming villages occupy the same portion of region squares as towns. Maybe if villages could be larger than that? Anyway, it should be interesting to see how this works out for other races. Maybe the sprawl could be controlled in the entity raws as well?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #587 on: August 03, 2010, 03:24:54 pm »

I would assume it's only about one meter or five feet cubed, based on the sizes of the intities which construct buildings and whatnot. Bigger creatures will likely be multitile, once that functionality goes in.

First, 1 meter does not equal 5 feet.  1 meter is about 3.28 feet.  Yes, they are "dwarves", but they aren't lawn gnomes.  They are only 6/7ths of human size.

Second, yes dwarves are short, but even if we say they were about 4'6" on average, with 5' being as rare as 6'6" is to humans, then you still wouldn't build floors 5 feet apart.  For one thing, you need about two feet of actual floor between floors, and for another, you don't build houses for humans with only 6' of headroom even if it is rare for humans to be 6' tall.  You build them with 8' of headroom, where most people would have to jump to touch the ceiling. 

That means we're talking 2.5 meters, minimum, although 3 meters is more likely, and frankly, makes an easier number to calculate with.

Finally, even if we were talking about a 1 cubic meter tile, that's still 1,000 liters of wall being constructed from 2 liters of metal, when even metal foam would only stretch that to 40 liters.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #588 on: August 03, 2010, 03:51:39 pm »

It looks like humans have gotten the most of the recent village development. How are the other races going to handle things? Are we going to see goblin villages and the like? And how are they going to be different from what you're doing with the humans?
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Haspen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #589 on: August 03, 2010, 03:59:17 pm »

It looks like humans have gotten the most of the recent village development. How are the other races going to handle things? Are we going to see goblin villages and the like? And how are they going to be different from what you're doing with the humans?

A obsidian castle with magma moat or people-burning-inside pit with towers occupied by poison-breathing FB's would do nice :D
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #590 on: August 03, 2010, 04:02:26 pm »

It looks like humans have gotten the most of the recent village development. How are the other races going to handle things? Are we going to see goblin villages and the like? And how are they going to be different from what you're doing with the humans?

A obsidian castle with magma moat or people-burning-inside pit with towers occupied by poison-breathing FB's would do nice :D

And dwarfs use the first layer of the UG where they carve rooms into the walls of the caves which they use as farms.
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tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #591 on: August 03, 2010, 04:07:10 pm »

Problem is that the first underground layer is a good 20 z-levels below the surface. Bit deep for a farmer to dig.

Hey Toady, you use the term "townsperson" in the latest dev post, and contrast these people with "farmers". I'm not really sure what the distinction here is. Would you clarify what you mean for me?"
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I still think that the whole fortress should be flooded with magma the moment you try dividing by zero.
This could be a handy way of teaching preschool children mathematics.

Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #592 on: August 03, 2010, 04:19:22 pm »

Hey Toady, you use the term "townsperson" in the latest dev post, and contrast these people with "farmers". I'm not really sure what the distinction here is. Would you clarify what you mean for me?"

Townspeople live in towns and probably have the normal variety of trades -- blacksmith, clothier, leatherworker, etc.  Farmers live in villages and do farmer stuff.
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #593 on: August 03, 2010, 04:21:22 pm »

Problem is that the first underground layer is a good 20 z-levels below the surface. Bit deep for a farmer to dig.
Dwarves already dig underground roads. I see no reason a settlement couldn't exist in the underground.

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Hey Toady, you use the term "townsperson" in the latest dev post, and contrast these people with "farmers". I'm not really sure what the distinction here is. Would you clarify what you mean for me?"
Presumably farmers farm, and live out in the countryside, whereas townspeople live in towns, and run the local inn and general store and whatever else

EDIT: or possibly what Footkerchief said.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 04:24:28 pm by Cruxador »
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Ratbert_CP

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #594 on: August 03, 2010, 04:24:22 pm »

Hey Toady, you use the term "townsperson" in the latest dev post, and contrast these people with "farmers". I'm not really sure what the distinction here is. Would you clarify what you mean for me?"

Townspeople live in towns and probably have the normal variety of trades -- blacksmith, clothier, leatherworker, etc.  Farmers live in villages and do farmer stuff.

Townspeople play La Havre, Farmers play Agricola.  ;)
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Sizik

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #595 on: August 03, 2010, 04:26:53 pm »

I would assume it's only about one meter or five feet cubed, based on the sizes of the intities which construct buildings and whatnot. Bigger creatures will likely be multitile, once that functionality goes in.

First, 1 meter does not equal 5 feet.  1 meter is about 3.28 feet.  Yes, they are "dwarves", but they aren't lawn gnomes.  They are only 6/7ths of human size.

Second, yes dwarves are short, but even if we say they were about 4'6" on average, with 5' being as rare as 6'6" is to humans, then you still wouldn't build floors 5 feet apart.  For one thing, you need about two feet of actual floor between floors, and for another, you don't build houses for humans with only 6' of headroom even if it is rare for humans to be 6' tall.  You build them with 8' of headroom, where most people would have to jump to touch the ceiling. 

That means we're talking 2.5 meters, minimum, although 3 meters is more likely, and frankly, makes an easier number to calculate with.

Finally, even if we were talking about a 1 cubic meter tile, that's still 1,000 liters of wall being constructed from 2 liters of metal, when even metal foam would only stretch that to 40 liters.

I think they're 5 feet square, and 10 feet tall.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #596 on: August 03, 2010, 04:29:06 pm »

It looks like humans have gotten the most of the recent village development. How are the other races going to handle things? Are we going to see goblin villages and the like? And how are they going to be different from what you're doing with the humans?

A obsidian castle with magma moat or people-burning-inside pit with towers occupied by poison-breathing FB's would do nice :D

And dwarfs use the first layer of the UG where they carve rooms into the walls of the caves which they use as farms.

I would expect only the larger dwarven cities to actually go to the caverns.  I put that in the suggestion thread about making moddable procedural dwarven forts, since only the Mountainhome where the dwarven civilization starts would need to have access to the caverns to collect the first plump helmet spawn that could then be transplanted in soil layers a mere 1-z level deep.

(Of course, if the dwarven roads are dug down around cavern level, then they might just be living along the dwarven roads, even with the increased danger of the underground creatures...)
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #597 on: August 03, 2010, 04:30:34 pm »

I think they're 5 feet square, and 10 feet tall.

The game strongly suggests tiles are cubic.  Z-distances are calculated the same as X and Y distances are.

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Man In Zero G

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #598 on: August 03, 2010, 05:03:25 pm »

Or they have the technology to make metal foam.

Unfortunately, not even that works, as it's only about 5% as dense or 20 times as voluminous as regular metal.

If we go by the 3-meter-cube assumption for tiles, we are turning a 2-liter bar of metal into a 27m3 or 27,000 liter wall, a change of 13,500 times the volume.

What if the wall-cube is hollow?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #599 on: August 03, 2010, 05:13:47 pm »

Unfortunately, not even that works, as it's only about 5% as dense or 20 times as voluminous as regular metal.

If we go by the 3-meter-cube assumption for tiles, we are turning a 2-liter bar of metal into a 27m3 or 27,000 liter wall, a change of 13,500 times the volume.

What if the wall-cube is hollow?

Interesting, let's consider that, then...  OK, let's pull out my calculator, here...

Going again with the assumption of a 3-meter cube... The surface area would be 9 square meters per side times 6 sides, so we have 54 m2 total surface area.  A little would have to be bevelled off in the corners, but we'll ignore that tiny detail as essentially a rounding error. 

Turning 2 liters (.002 m3) into a surface of 54 m2 would leave us with a thickness of...  3.7037073 *10-5 meters, or roughly .04 mm thick.

For comparison, paper is roughly .1 mm thick.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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