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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1551433 times)

Greiger

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1425 on: October 18, 2010, 07:09:58 pm »

Way I've been thinking of it is that the tools are made with the workshop.  And that in general the dwarves bring with them a small supply of the simple tools that wouldn't be easily made out of ambient stone.

A small object like a chisel could easily be carried on a dwarf's person as well, so one could assume migrants with skill in masonry or stonecrafting would bring one with them.  Same with things like carpenter's hammers, nails, and various other brick-a-brac. Objects too small to be meaningful or mindlessly simple to make with almost no resource consumption.   If it did end up being necessary for some reason or another, a blacksmith could probably forge a functional chisel out of leftover iron from a smithing job or something. So why bother putting a lot of trouble into tracking exactly how many you have and where they are?  That's how I see the small tools in a fortress in my mind.


Although I'm usually pro-complexity, requiring you to bring along such small insignificant tools (that honestly any self respecting member of their craft wouldn't leave home without) seems too much trouble for too little gain.  But I suppose I can see the appeal.

Perhaps a happy medium could be a system where the tool is essentially attached to the workshop and made automatically with the workshop with no extra resource consumption.  It isn't tracked as an item until the player chooses to detach the object at which point it can be used as a weapon or any other item.  While the item is away from it's parent workshop, the workshop functions at reduced speed and cannot produce higher quality items, if it can produce at all.  The item is made of the same materiel as the workshop.  A stone carpenter's workshop gets a stone carpenter's hammer for example.  If the item is not feasible to be made out of the materiel the tool is just made of iron or whatever material makes sense, and it is assumed that the tool was in the wagon, or a professional had one on hand.  Such generated tools are ineligible for melting, in the same fashion that artifacts cannot be dumped.

P.S. Note: For artifact tracking purposes, a work tool that gets historical significance (like scoring a kill) is automagically upgraded to full item status perhaps with some kind of indication in the description or something.  The workshop attached to the item simply generates a new tool for itself.  Perhaps the dwarves could see the significance of the tool as a historical object and just choose to replace it then risk damaging an item with historical significance with daily wear and tear.  From the way I understand the current item destruction and generation issues that could be an coding problem without something like that in place.

I believe that would keep the most folks happy while keeping unnecessary clutter down and keeping the game from having to keep track of a dozen of every tool all the time.  There are still a few things that seem tricky (where is a fisherman's fishing gear held? The fishery?  But a full time fisherman never goes there.  What about a farm?  Tools kept with the farm plot or the farmer's workshop?) but I feel that it would be a good solution.

Of course Toady is free to make his own decision.  Just a suggestion I feel is relevant to the conversation.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 07:19:29 pm by Greiger »
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1426 on: October 18, 2010, 07:18:44 pm »

Or just have generic tools item. One piece of iron would create many, like "Tools [10]".
But yeah, any more complexity would only add micromanagement to no benefit at all.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1427 on: October 18, 2010, 07:35:40 pm »

As for farms: There are many ancient techs that are essentially plowless. Actually plows contribute to soil erosion and lowered fertility. Its a long time thing but iirc depending on where you are and what your soil is you can lose 2 Meters of soil in around 1000 years. There are theories that some cultures died out because theyr farmland eroded away. Today more and more farmers go back to plowless farming.

Ok that was some trivia for you back to the topic:

I think generic tools could go in if they add to the quality or speed of the production. Say a plow allowing faster planting. This way the player can produce tools if wants them but does not need to use them. The generic tool[10] might work for stuff like needles and other small things. Using a cage as "fish trap" might work for fishers but a fisher can also catch fish by his bare hands.

 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 07:39:30 pm by Heph »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1428 on: October 18, 2010, 09:01:59 pm »

The distinction is that mining and chopping don't require anything but the tool. Farming requires a farm plot, smithing requires a forge and anvil and tongs. Butchery doesn't require any single thing, but it's a complicated process, and a workshop is not unmerited even if it is possible to clean carcasses and chop them up and all that in the field.
Way I've been thinking of it is that the tools are made with the workshop.  And that in general the dwarves bring with them a small supply of the simple tools that wouldn't be easily made out of ambient stone.
Or just have generic tools item. One piece of iron would create many, like "Tools [10]".
But yeah, any more complexity would only add micromanagement to no benefit at all.
I think generic tools could go in if they add to the quality or speed of the production. Say a plow allowing faster planting. This way the player can produce tools if wants them but does not need to use them. The generic tool[10] might work for stuff like needles and other small things. Using a cage as "fish trap" might work for fishers but a fisher can also catch fish by his bare hands. 

The tools / expandable workshops thing has been covered in so many threads I can't even find them all.  I think it's safe to say that Toady already has plenty of player input to draw on.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5950.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=48869.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=22288.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=37012.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55143.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49802.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19657.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49635.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=29469.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=66917.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=24946.0 <= this one is currently active, so it would be a good place to move the discussion
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28123.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47601.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5950.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=27214.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28276.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4533.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5926.0

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« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 09:04:56 pm by Footkerchief »
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Greiger

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1429 on: October 18, 2010, 09:55:13 pm »

The search engine turned sentient cannot find all of the threads relating to the topic?

Wow, we must have really broke him with this one.  Maybe an overflow error?  Guess somebody needs to go reboot Footkerchief.

(Yes I mean that in the most respectful way possible.  You are like a king among us, oh master of the bug tracker.)
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Quatch

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1430 on: October 18, 2010, 10:36:00 pm »

Some sort of limit has been broken I suspect. Pent up referencing. He may just be getting back up to speed :)
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Genoraven

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1431 on: October 19, 2010, 01:14:25 am »

I love you Footkerchief.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1432 on: October 19, 2010, 01:44:21 am »

Quote from: Nivm
If you had a choice, what kinds of things would you want the long and common magic discussions to figure out? There are so many of them, and so many people thinking and speculating over the same things again and again. It seems like during the time it takes to reach the magic arc, many near-perfect theories about it's possible structure could be laid out for you cleanly and clearly. But do you want that?

We're not going to use any one system, so I think the most useful things are probably general and possibly unusual ideas about how a given magic system might work in a world, where the discussion is aware that the system isn't exclusively used by all worlds, or discussions about differences that could exist between worlds.  Specifics can be useful if they stay above the numerics/algorithms for the most part.  I'm sure there are useful exceptions, so I don't want to exclude anything in particular.  Questions of overall atmosphere are somewhat settled (as in the DF talk quotes from before), though I still like to hear opinions on all sides there.  In general we're not as receptive to explicitly leveled firebolts or steampunk as we are to something more nebulous and less technological, but we don't want to shut down potential useful avenues of discussion.

Ideas where different manifestations of magic have underlying structural connections with the world are good.  We're probably going to be adding different metaphysical systems along the lines of how a creation story using a pantheon might generate pre-world-gen events, and it'd answer all the big questions like "what happens when you die?", "what happens when you dream?", "why do we exist?", "is there a purpose to existence?", "what are emotions?" etc. etc., and gods, planes of existence, magical systems and whatever else can provide answers to these questions that further manifest themselves as part of a magic system (or the world could be utterly mundane as desired).  When we do this, we'll be in a position where we are using our own ideas and continuing to look through suggestions and just using the best and easiest stuff at first, and that'll be how magic manifests itself.

Quote from: Mephansteras
When the economy/site resources go in, are we going to see more logical equipment for guards, invaders, and the like? Also, how well is the game going to handle in modded-in materials and the like?

You mean stuff they could reasonably afford or some other bug?  Or you mean equipment based on more AI and siege planning?  I'm not sure what angle you meant by more logical.  For materials, it depends on how they are modded in.  The current materials are all in the raws, and presumably anything people put in will be used in the same way.  It has trouble following arbitrary reactions now if there are materials hidden down a production chain, but stuff in the ground and smelted metals should be handled whether it is stock or modded.

Quote from: Heph
Will Nightcreature dens have theyr own crude (weapon)-traps at some point?

Probably still waiting on kobold and goblin (and dwarf) traps for things like that.  And the larger human burial structures.  I'm not sure if I'm going to add any adv mode traps before the mechanics rewrite, and there has to be some sort of mitigation, since the traps as they stand would tend to be fairly deadly instant game-enders for the poor explorers, although I'm not sure how that'll change.
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James.Denholm

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1433 on: October 19, 2010, 01:54:04 am »

No, this is the calm before the storm... Soon we'll be positively snowballed with posts from the man. Every single word from every single post will be commented and analysed.

It's only a matter of time, now.

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Re. Adventure Mode Traps: Perhaps some sort of quick skill in trap avoidance or trap disarming, or have avoidance defined by the agility of a character? It's probably been suggested before.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1434 on: October 19, 2010, 02:36:18 am »

 :o ok toadys secret monthend project: A Ai or clone of himself to answer questions.

Thanks toady (praised be your name) for the continuing stream of answers.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1435 on: October 19, 2010, 12:15:02 pm »

Quote from: Mephansteras
When the economy/site resources go in, are we going to see more logical equipment for guards, invaders, and the like? Also, how well is the game going to handle in modded-in materials and the like?

You mean stuff they could reasonably afford or some other bug?  Or you mean equipment based on more AI and siege planning?  I'm not sure what angle you meant by more logical.  For materials, it depends on how they are modded in.  The current materials are all in the raws, and presumably anything people put in will be used in the same way.  It has trouble following arbitrary reactions now if there are materials hidden down a production chain, but stuff in the ground and smelted metals should be handled whether it is stock or modded.

Sorry for not being specific. I'll elaborate a bit.

For equipment: Currently the game is pretty random about what people get. You'll see dwarven guards with copper gauntlets and steel helms. Or, worse, Axelords showing up with copper axes and the like. It'd be nice if guards/soldiers were more consistent about it. Going with what they could afford or would be standard for a guard of that type would be nice. Maybe having dwarven caravan guards in mostly bronze with a few steel items, but royal guards being decked out in all fine quality steel. Elite soldiers should have good materials as well as high quality. A copper axe isn't that great no matter how awesomely it's decorated.

This gets even worse when you have modded in materials, as the game ends up doing some pretty inappropriate stuff. Super light materials as hammers, for example, or caravan guards showing up with equipment that's far more expensive then they should reasonably have. Plus, the more materials available to the civ the more random their equipment gets. Which might be fine for mercenaries and bandits, but soldiers should probably have more consistent equipment.

Thieves should also be a bit more logical with what they show up with. I understand that the kobolds steal pretty much everything they use, but they really should show up with whatever is most common for the civilizations near them. A silver dagger, for instance, isn't as practical as a bronze dagger and is more expensive. There really should be less of those floating around then seem to show up. On the flip side, Dwarves aren't going to bother making copper daggers very often, even if they do have plenty of copper sitting around. Bronze, Iron, or Steel work better and should be pretty readily available.

In general for modded items I guess it'd be nice if there was a way to get stuff that's far down a production chain (like some end-product items from Alchemy), but as long as there is some way to get traders to bring the various components that's probably sufficient.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1436 on: October 19, 2010, 11:48:58 pm »

Hmm where dreams come from. Definately something for the mythology generator.

Though I'd think that the answer to that should determine how the mechanics for it function.
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Ethicalfive

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1437 on: October 20, 2010, 10:00:32 am »

Minotaurs and Mazes?!?! Freeking awesome. I think you tickled my curiosity just right good sir! Must delve into the world of adventure mode apon next release.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1438 on: October 20, 2010, 10:21:24 am »

So ... I take it that going after minotaur with Adamantium masterwork battle axe might not be brightest idea if you value lives of your subsequent adventurers?

Can natural skills be trained further or are they static?

tfaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #1439 on: October 20, 2010, 10:31:44 am »

Could you elaborate a bit on what a labyrinth is? Is it a natural element of a cavern that minotaurs gravitate toward, something created by the minotaur, or an abandoned structure created by a civilization?
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