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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 868525 times)

mendonca

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2130 on: November 18, 2010, 07:40:49 am »

10 Barnards Star -> sell luxury goods -> Buy Robots -> travel to Sol -> check bulletin board - > sell robots -> buy luxury goods -> travel to Barnards Star
20 GOTO 10

Are we to expect such depth of gameplay early in the Caravan Arc? I reckon I spent weeks all in carrying out the above, just to get myself a bigger and badder ship.

On a related note (re. Elite 2 bulletin boards) a mechanism to offload goods to private individuals might be fun on occasion - perhaps you could sell all your food to a noble at raised prices in a starving community -> he pays a premium to keep his family healthy.

(I'm really excited to see how the game is developing at the moment, the last couple of years are really starting to pay off)
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2131 on: November 18, 2010, 07:48:57 am »

10 Barnards Star -> sell luxury goods -> Buy Robots -> travel to Sol -> check bulletin board - > sell robots -> buy luxury goods -> travel to Barnards Star
20 GOTO 10

You got more money shipping between Gateway and Soholia.
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Psieye

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2132 on: November 18, 2010, 08:51:21 am »

10 Barnards Star -> sell luxury goods -> Buy Robots -> travel to Sol -> check bulletin board - > sell robots -> buy luxury goods -> travel to Barnards Star
20 GOTO 10

Are we to expect such depth of gameplay early in the Caravan Arc? I reckon I spent weeks all in carrying out the above, just to get myself a bigger and badder ship.
If I'm reading the dev notes correctly, it may get more complex:

- Get information that X town needs Y goods really badly
- Mass up on Y goods
- Travel to X town
- Realise 12 other caravans got there before you and now Y goods is no longer in high demand
- Worry how you'll ever turn a profit now with your current load


If real caravans are travelling between sites then supply and demand will be changing during gameplay. If worldgen continues during play as well, expect even more drastic changes as say a sudden war in some location will suddenly bring certain goods into demand (military gear, food supplies). After enough development, I'd imagine you could even be a total bastard and massacre some town which causes a change in supply & demand which you then cater to after disguising yourself as someone else. Even better if the local government mobilises their army in response but that's clearly Army Arc and beyond.

Shuttling 2 types of goods between 2 locations where the demand is stable and unchanging is comparatively simple. I wouldn't be surprised if early releases of the caravan arc already catered to that style of gameplay. Of course, you'd have to figure out that stable trade route for each worldgen as it'll be randomised.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 08:54:00 am by Psieye »
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2133 on: November 18, 2010, 08:54:28 am »

Quote from: Knight Otu
Regarding tools, they are currently not native to Dwarf mode, probably only appearing there with custom reactions. Do you think that the pick and similar things (shovels, felling axes, two-man saws...) will move over to the tool format with a tag to make them applicable for dwarf mode to allow some tool use there without it becoming overwhelming?

Yeah, it's quite possible the picks will move over to the tool format, though I'm also considering the item format in general.  It should respect more dual-use stuff, and the strict item types of weapon and tool and a few others might re-disappear over time with a more versatile format (for instance, expanding the "use" idea to break weapons into several groups that would interface nicely with formations etc., and then give some weapons tool style uses as well).

Quote from: Heph
Did i get that right (since the question came up on the forum) That creature lairs behave as "Player created side" and stuff in there does in fact not scatter around?

They are even stronger than player forts in that respect -- in order to maintain a bit of gore for the time being, items are not moved or rotted inside the lairs, and there's a special flag for it.  In that sense, they are good places to store things and sleep (up to interference by whatever bugs).

Quote from: Lord Shonus
Will trading a material to a civ give them limited access to that material in the same manner that it currently does for the player? For example, Vanilla Elves don't use metal. If I traded away large amounts of coke and steel bars to the elves, would they later show up with low quality steel equipment made from those bars? Similarly, will resource deposits become more important in worldgen, for example humans fighting elves to gain a tin deposit (once tin is properly rare again)?

What they do with traded materials or whether they trade for them in the first place in world gen will likely depending on the professions given to them in their entity defs.  Resource deposits and redistribution to localized areas are going to be key, and struggles over resources are one of the main reasons the caravan stuff is going in before the next push on army stuff.  So it's quite possible that elves simply won't trade for steel, unless they can think ahead far enough to trade it to the humans or other dwarves, which may or may not be in the cards depending on how well things go -- once they see that they should accept steel in some circumstances, the rest would happen naturally, but the bump to get over is their valuation of steel during the initial trade, since it'll have to account for transport cost/storage/likelihood/value of the future trade.  That's probably easier during dwarf mode rather than world gen, just because there is more time to crunch fewer numbers.  Since humans don't have a restriction on making things from steel if they've got the bars at this point, that is more straightforward -- if you trade steel bars to humans, as things are currently planned, they will return with steel weapons in the event of an attack (provided the armies draw equipment from stockpiles next time, which I addressed around the last post I think).

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Quote from: Orkel
Will this be possible in future versions?

Quote from: Chatlog

    A Zombie Goast: But really
    A Zombie Goast: If the Dwarf grows attached to a weapon
    A Zombie Goast: Or piece of armor
    A Zombie Goast: And the Dwarf dies
    A Zombie Goast: That thing should become haunted
    A Zombie Goast: Or whatever they call it when an object has a ghost
Quote from: James.Denholm
Given that bodies and souls are now separate, I'd say that this kind of thing is an eventual goal.

Yeah, the idea of the soul separation was to prepare for this sort of thing.  Of course there's no timeline.

Quote from: calrogman
Any plans for adventurers being able to contract specific armour/weapons with specific improvements in the next development arc?

Not for the next release.  It's more likely when we add the ability to do it in dwarf mode, which is on the dev page, or when we do adventurer entities and disguise/identity, which are also up there.  Either one might lead to this natural progression.

Quote from: Naros
Is there a Month of Bugfixes planned?

The current idea is caravan release, patch release(s), series of general bug fix releases, army stuff.  The plans are subject to change, but I think that applies more to the last part than the others (looking forward to armies, but you never know).  So, yeah.  If not a month, then a significant chunk of time beyond what happened between 0.31.17 and 0.31.18 or within 0.31.17 in terms of bug fixing.

Quote from: ManaUser
Is three any chance of restoring compatibility with older Windows versions?

My recollection of the situation back when it arose is that compatibility with versions before XP SP3 was removed by MS with MSVC 2010, through the tweaking of some funtion name or another in a DLL.  I can't find mention of a workaround now, though something might exist.  I vaguely remember a similar situation where a workaround came up but it didn't work out as simply as advertised...  I don't remember if it was this one though.  In any case, I'm currently unaware of how to fix it.  It's not feasible to go back to the old compiler at this point.

Quote from: Dante
When will there be a raws tag for bodyparts that should be able to be levered or popped out, e.g. eyeballs?

I don't have a timeline.  It's a reasonable thing though.  The current popping out methods are too linked to disembowelment and death to be used.

Quote from: nil
What are your plans for integrating retired adventurers into Fortress mode, e.g. by having them lead founding parties?

This was up on the old dev pages if I remember and might come up during the fortress start scenarios.  It's quite possible you'll be attacked by old adventurers before you can use them to found fortresses.

Quote from: shadow_archmagi
Will Companion Acquiring be streamlined anytime soon? With the new version, it seems much easier to haul around 20 companions but it's kind of a nuisance to go door to door looking for soldiers and having to repeat the same conversation 20 times whenever you need to stock up again

There are some possibilities for getting large amounts of "companions" all at once when we get to the army stuff (or when you can rabblerouse a bunch of drunks in a tavern or something), but as for real buddy style companions, I'm not sure I ever want to speed it up.  I'd rather increase their survivability in general or stop them from foolishly traveling with you if they die all the time.

Quote from: 1freeman
also, are the delay's between shot's supposed to simulate reloading, and if so will there be a option to not reload automatically afer each shot, like a combat preference? 

Yeah, that's what the delay is for, and I'd prefer to have it actually track the loading/ready state of the weapon and let you decide where you want to be there, yeah.  The reaction moment/combat-move speed split stuff points in that direction, but I'm not sure when it'll happen.

Quote from: Arkose
To better emulate vomiting from a finite stomach, how about if vomiting increased the creature's hunger meter; the creature will retch instead of vomiting if the hunger meter is above some value.

Right now it uses your fullness counter, which is related to when you last ate, as well as an auxiliary counter that is supposed to simulate fluids or something.  Ideally this will take care of itself when we have things like swallowing items and nutritional stuff leading to partially eaten food contents and so on, but I have no idea.

Quote from: 1freeman
When livestock are incorporated, will we be able to train war and hunting animal's. also will there only be farm animals or will we be able to purchase dog's and cat's?

Currently, horses and mules are more likely than cats and dogs are more likely than random war beasts are more likely than being able to train animals.  Being able to train animals almost certainly won't be in the next release.  The element of uncertainty comes in with simulating all those random war animals the generals constantly train in world gen, etc. -- those are going to be simulated by the numbers now and presumably they'll exist on sites now.  Whether that means they'll be on the market or just part of armies or a lord's personal menagerie is up for grabs.

Quote from: Japa
Toady, do you have plans to give more information in the sites and populations export?

things like location?

Those files are in limbo now that the (partial) XML dump exists.  I don't know if they should be continued at all or what.  The restriction is that they need to have the most important information in a more human-friendly format, where the XML is giant and can be used by utilities.

Quote from: Moddan
Will attributes like social awareness, empathy or linguistic sense have any influence on how successful meat shield hiring attemps or quest requests are? Will we see social skills for adventure mode soon?

I think there's a reference to social awareness and the leadership skill when calculating the maximum number of followers, but I wasn't going to mess with the details of the conversation engine until we get to the personality/emotions rewrite, which was a precursor to job priorities and more NPC AI.  So "soon", probably not, but it could end up as part of the army stuff, where I'll need some more decision making.

Quote from: Neonivek
Toady eventually will the NPCs start to notice that anyone who rides with you essentially meets and untimely end and thus refuse your recruitment on the basis that you are probably more deadly then all the Megabeasts, Demons, and Goblins combined and actually tell you that is the reason? At that point how would you recover your reputation if possible?

He he he, yeah, I guess I alluded to that above.  I think it is reasonable for people to judge you to be certain death based on your track record, and it seems like a difficult place to come back from.  You might have to invest more equipment and money in the matter until you show that you are capable of success at a lesser cost of life, or you might have to move.  There's certainly going to be a more multi-faceted approach to reputation beyond "hero/criminal/member" as we move forward.  It should be that you can still get desperate or foolish people to travel with you even if you have a fairly bad reputation for companion survivability, assuming they have some other reason to come along than dying.

Quote from: madjoe5
Will it ever be possible for nobles to give your adventurer quests that involve raiding/sieging goblins/warring entities? Would that ever affect the world (ie they appear in Legends as sieges, winning results in the target location to be owned by your parent civilization, etc)? If so, how long do you think this would take to implement.

Yeah, all of that will come up in the first army release.  Probably on the time scale of the 0.31.17 release to get a lot of interesting stuff going on, but we know how good I am with release date estimation.  Whether it ends up satisfying is another matter, since strategy game AI has high standards among discerning players, but I can guarantee adventurer involvement and world changes, if not good decision making, he he he.  Fort mode involvement is going to rely on the surrounding populations getting you up to usable numbers as well as some pains with shifting focus from the fort to the battlefield and back, so that might be a further release down the line or in the first release with a bit more of a release delay, depending on how everything is going then.  We're really looking forward to get everything out there and moving around, first with the caravans and then with the armies, beasts and bandits.

Quote from: dennislp3
So whats the deal with the military tactics skill...you have plans for that? is it already a working skill that affects things or just something thats there for late?

It has influence on world gen, but that's it.  I'm not sure if the existence of the skill is a permanent state of affairs, and it'll be hard to say until we have the formations and the multi-tile armies moving around on the travel map and so on.  The better the AI gets, the worse I can screw it up due to lack of skill, so there's hope, anyway.

Quote from: Cruxador
So now that the Dev Log is a more general thing and not a single-contributor thingy, might others (Baughn, for example) also end up with the ability to post there?

I dunno.  It's a new change.  I expect anyone might be possible, but I haven't spoken with anybody.

Quote from: mendonca
10 Barnards Star -> sell luxury goods -> Buy Robots -> travel to Sol -> check bulletin board - > sell robots -> buy luxury goods -> travel to Barnards Star
20 GOTO 10

Are we to expect such depth of gameplay early in the Caravan Arc?

I don't know what the bulletin board does.  There's that dev page thing about inquiring regarding supply/demand situations, which is probably going to have some partial implementation in this release.  Other than that, you'll be able to move stuff around and make ends meet, first release, though there still aren't a lot of ends.  And yeah, the situation might end up complicated and a bit untidy for you.
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shadow_archmagi

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2134 on: November 18, 2010, 09:08:10 am »

Yeah, I can't wait to send a 100-man-strong caravan to an elf civilization on the brink of starvation, pull up in the depot, and say "Behold! CLOTH!"

This is why I shouldn't read forums during class. I just burst out laughing and everyone glared at me.

At least I didn't do a spit-take.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2135 on: November 18, 2010, 09:12:11 am »

if caravans are going to show up in fortress mode, and then the armies, and then the !!wars!!, can we expect some enhancement in the number of dwarves a fortress could maintain before fps death?

a couple of 15 dwarves caravan active, a 75 dwarves army for defence, a 100 dwarves for attacking and you'll need a lot of other dwarves to produce weapons, food, booze and generally maintain all of that stuff.
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Karlito

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2136 on: November 18, 2010, 09:51:54 am »

if caravans are going to show up in fortress mode, and then the armies, and then the !!wars!!, can we expect some enhancement in the number of dwarves a fortress could maintain before fps death?

a couple of 15 dwarves caravan active, a 75 dwarves army for defence, a 100 dwarves for attacking and you'll need a lot of other dwarves to produce weapons, food, booze and generally maintain all of that stuff.
Toady's said in the past that when your fortress becomes a barony, it should start to have some control over dwarves outside your fortress, like drafting them for an invasion force or having them pay you taxes.
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Psieye

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2137 on: November 18, 2010, 10:16:51 am »

if caravans are going to show up in fortress mode, and then the armies, and then the !!wars!!, can we expect some enhancement in the number of dwarves a fortress could maintain before fps death?

a couple of 15 dwarves caravan active, a 75 dwarves army for defence, a 100 dwarves for attacking and you'll need a lot of other dwarves to produce weapons, food, booze and generally maintain all of that stuff.
Toady's said in the past that when your fortress becomes a barony, it should start to have some control over dwarves outside your fortress, like drafting them for an invasion force or having them pay you taxes.
To expand on that point, the lands surrounding your embark point will build dwarf settlements. So your fortress will end up surrounded by villages and outposts that you cannot directly interact with, but you can order them to send some dwarves for some project beyond the borders of your embark site. After you return from that trade/invasion/whatever, they'll go back to their homes so you cannot bring them back with you to your fortress directly. Think of the many civilians and soldiers in adventure mode now who have no name until you speak with them - you'd have these 'faceless mooks' to fill in the roles you require. Afterall in a battle, do you realllllly care what kind of personality Urist McGoon#213 has and whether Urist McGoon#148 slept in a good bed recently?

I guess this implies you'd be fighting goblins out on the field while they're travelling to you and only if you fail to win do they siege you (with the opportunity to use weapon traps and all on them). If they're sieging you, they've already done damage to your surrounding settlements.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2138 on: November 18, 2010, 10:24:23 am »

if caravans are going to show up in fortress mode, and then the armies, and then the !!wars!!, can we expect some enhancement in the number of dwarves a fortress could maintain before fps death?

a couple of 15 dwarves caravan active, a 75 dwarves army for defence, a 100 dwarves for attacking and you'll need a lot of other dwarves to produce weapons, food, booze and generally maintain all of that stuff.
Toady's said in the past that when your fortress becomes a barony, it should start to have some control over dwarves outside your fortress, like drafting them for an invasion force or having them pay you taxes.
To expand on that point, the lands surrounding your embark point will build dwarf settlements. So your fortress will end up surrounded by villages and outposts that you cannot directly interact with, but you can order them to send some dwarves for some project beyond the borders of your embark site. After you return from that trade/invasion/whatever, they'll go back to their homes so you cannot bring them back with you to your fortress directly. Think of the many civilians and soldiers in adventure mode now who have no name until you speak with them - you'd have these 'faceless mooks' to fill in the roles you require. Afterall in a battle, do you realllllly care what kind of personality Urist McGoon#213 has and whether Urist McGoon#148 slept in a good bed recently?

I guess this implies you'd be fighting goblins out on the field while they're travelling to you and only if you fail to win do they siege you (with the opportunity to use weapon traps and all on them). If they're sieging you, they've already done damage to your surrounding settlements.

you still need to churn out equipment for them, but that may work.

however, what would happen then when the siege comes? even if the defender are abstracted away, if the goblin attackers win and come to your fortress they will make an huge impact on frame rate.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2139 on: November 18, 2010, 10:59:06 am »

Yeah, it's quite possible the picks will move over to the tool format, though I'm also considering the item format in general.  It should respect more dual-use stuff, and the strict item types of weapon and tool and a few others might re-disappear over time with a more versatile format (for instance, expanding the "use" idea to break weapons into several groups that would interface nicely with formations etc., and then give some weapons tool style uses as well).
That's definitely something I'd love to see, along with other raw types getting similar treatmeant (materials especially).

Quote from: Japa
Toady, do you have plans to give more information in the sites and populations export?

things like location?

Those files are in limbo now that the (partial) XML dump exists.  I don't know if they should be continued at all or what.  The restriction is that they need to have the most important information in a more human-friendly format, where the XML is giant and can be used by utilities.
I'd rather have both the quick export that gives an overview of the world and the slow but detailed xml export. Sometimes you just want to know whether your modded creatures actually roam the world or how successful your entities are.

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2140 on: November 18, 2010, 11:23:22 am »

That's definitely something I'd love to see, along with other raw types getting similar treatmeant (materials especially).

What do you mean about materials?  Less strict material types, e.g. more robust alloying or something?

if caravans are going to show up in fortress mode, and then the armies, and then the !!wars!!, can we expect some enhancement in the number of dwarves a fortress could maintain before fps death?

a couple of 15 dwarves caravan active, a 75 dwarves army for defence, a 100 dwarves for attacking and you'll need a lot of other dwarves to produce weapons, food, booze and generally maintain all of that stuff.

Other people already mentioned a lot of the concepts here, but here are some quotes:

Spoiler: wall o' text (click to show/hide)
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Quatch

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2141 on: November 18, 2010, 12:53:56 pm »


Yeah, I can't wait to send a 100-man-strong caravan to an elf civilization on the brink of starvation, pull up in the depot, and say "Behold! CLOTH!"

Any plans for food of desperation to be available? Boiled shoes for dinner tonight, but it beats starving.

Also, I know it is a crazy question, but when you calculate distance for things like caravan travel, will you use spherical-world distance, or straight line distance? Will dragons prefer raiding along great-circle routes?

footnote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance Illustration http://www.distancefromto.net/.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2142 on: November 18, 2010, 01:19:32 pm »

That's definitely something I'd love to see, along with other raw types getting similar treatmeant (materials especially).

What do you mean about materials?  Less strict material types, e.g. more robust alloying or something?
Well, not quite - several material tokens are restricted to certain types of material, such as MILL, DRINK and the like being restricted to plant materials, similar to how several "item" tokens are restricted to weapons, armor, and so on. The latter might see a revision according to Toady's post to allow for more dual purpose items, something I'd like to see in other raw files as well if at all possible.
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Psieye

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2143 on: November 18, 2010, 01:43:17 pm »

if caravans are going to show up in fortress mode, and then the armies, and then the !!wars!!, can we expect some enhancement in the number of dwarves a fortress could maintain before fps death?

a couple of 15 dwarves caravan active, a 75 dwarves army for defence, a 100 dwarves for attacking and you'll need a lot of other dwarves to produce weapons, food, booze and generally maintain all of that stuff.
Toady's said in the past that when your fortress becomes a barony, it should start to have some control over dwarves outside your fortress, like drafting them for an invasion force or having them pay you taxes.
To expand on that point, the lands surrounding your embark point will build dwarf settlements. So your fortress will end up surrounded by villages and outposts that you cannot directly interact with, but you can order them to send some dwarves for some project beyond the borders of your embark site. After you return from that trade/invasion/whatever, they'll go back to their homes so you cannot bring them back with you to your fortress directly. Think of the many civilians and soldiers in adventure mode now who have no name until you speak with them - you'd have these 'faceless mooks' to fill in the roles you require. Afterall in a battle, do you realllllly care what kind of personality Urist McGoon#213 has and whether Urist McGoon#148 slept in a good bed recently?

I guess this implies you'd be fighting goblins out on the field while they're travelling to you and only if you fail to win do they siege you (with the opportunity to use weapon traps and all on them). If they're sieging you, they've already done damage to your surrounding settlements.

you still need to churn out equipment for them, but that may work.

however, what would happen then when the siege comes? even if the defender are abstracted away, if the goblin attackers win and come to your fortress they will make an huge impact on frame rate.
Well yes, you'd have to solve the logistics problem of "how do I equip all my soldiers" as well as "how do I get all the food they'll need to eat while travelling and fighting". But it's very easy to produce a ridiculous overabundance of items in fortress mode anyway. Maybe if we have some kind of "the Abstractor Chest" thing where you put items in and they get abstracted into generic items - these abstracted items then no longer eat away at your FPS/memory and only items put in here are then available to your army when you go waging war out there. Like, here's my vision of it (which means it's speculation and I've no idea what Toady's actual vision is):

--- Start Speculation ---
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 01:56:53 pm by Psieye »
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Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #2144 on: November 18, 2010, 02:15:04 pm »

Will we be able to get roads made on the world map, in both dwarf and adventure mode?

Will you be able to finance various things in adventure mode?
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