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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 833780 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3375 on: February 02, 2011, 09:25:20 pm »

As a matter of fact, I have a few threads around on making dwarves more autonomous, and might as well reference them again:

I, Dwarfbot
Class Warfare

The thing is, the point of those is to make the player aware that the dwarves are becoming more autonomous if they are being autonomous. 

The ideas behind those threads involve letting dwarves pick the professions that match their personalities themselves, and not making it all dependant upon a player who has better things to do than babysit every dwarf's labors and personality traits.

Further discussion of those topics are probably best moved over into those threads, as this conversation has already taken gone on too long in this thread, and is pretty derailed from the original topic of personality traits.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3376 on: February 02, 2011, 09:42:49 pm »

In a case like this, if it's done well then it's organic/intuitive enough that you don't need to be told. After all, do you need to be told that a dwarf who doesn't like helping others might not make, say, a good doctor?

Obviously, yes. 

We had this problem with noise, as well.  People spent much time worrying about making sure their workshops would not interrupt their residential neighborhoods with too much noise until people figured out that workshops and training drills and the like didn't create noise.  Only re-arranging furniture caused noise.  This meant someone moving in to their home created a noise cube that woke up everyone in the entire fortress who was sleeping, but the pounding of the forge wouldn't wake up someone two feet away.

Suspending fortresses on bars of soap.  Drawbridges count for support, but grates do not.  Tricks for not having dwarves build floodgates in ways that wall them in a magma chamber.  Animals reproducing through spores, without needing direct contact.

Just think of all the things in this game that logically should or shouldn't happen, but where logic is suspended by dwarfiness, and you'll have your answer as to why people don't just assume that simply because something is logical, it doesn't necessarily mean it will happen in the game.

In game design, when a feature is hidden so well that players cannot find it or it is commonly misunderstood as a bug, it is common practice to regard that feature as a failed mechanic and consequently revise it in some way.

If the obscurity of Dwarf Fortress game mechanics is leading to player-perceived problems with the game and thus driving away frustrated players, then the game mechanics need either illumination or reworking; in this case, the effect of personality traits on the functionality of in-game systems. Even if the exact mechanics are not revealed, revealing to the players that mechanics that once appeared useless now have a point can help reduce misunderstanding created by the previous paradigms players had built about older versions of the game. In an alpha like Dwarf Fortress, this is even more important. After all, since DF is currently still testing the balance of new mechanics and ridden with bugs, isn't in the developer's best interest for his players to have an idea of what to look for and how to know if it is working?
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3377 on: February 02, 2011, 10:47:42 pm »

Your guys' posts have lots of words in them.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3378 on: February 02, 2011, 11:34:48 pm »

Being a new player to DF, I have some thoughts into this matter of whether the game is better figuring things out or not.

Firstly, I think DF is a relatively hard game to figure out on your own.  But even with some help (the wiki), I still gets those "ah-ha" moments when I research something and learn about it.  I don't get discouraged because, as I scaled the difficulty cliff and finally make it to the first shelf, I looked back and saw the awesome sight.  DF rewards you climbing the difficultly cliff with freedom otherwise unseen. As you learn more the game gets more interesting. Sometimes you stumble (or in this case BURN AND DIE), but you learn something new.  So even with help you still get satisfaction of being able to figure out things about the game. This game is also broad enough that people can't figure down to an exact science.  A fortress design may work out the first time, the next time things can go wrong.

I agree that to an extent games get boring when people figure out the perfect strategy for a game, because honestly to the people who believe in the perfect strategy accept that as the only strategy.  I blatantly ignore these kinds of ultimate strategy, because there is no fun there. DF's ultimate goal seems to be to make a game where ultimate strategies don't exist, making each time you play it fun and different. Granted DF is far from that right now, but I have confidence that it will there someday.

I also understand that features need to be figure-out-able.  If you can't figure out how a feature works, then what's the point of the feature unless its meant to be hard to understand for some reason.  Ultimately, I think the actual fun challenge of a game should be in figuring out how different features interact with one another and honestly DF has a lot of that.  Being able to find new things is always possible in a game this complex. Like today, I think I discovered an interesting thing about water pressure.  I tried to make a lake that uses water pressure to fill up. The lake is 8 z-levels below the river... but only one z-level filled up.  Apparently, stairways negate water pressure... at least that's what I've come up with.  I read the Water Pressure page in the wiki and it doesn't say anything about it... but at the very least water pressure is not working like it should in this situation and the only fail point appear to be the stairs being the only thing not accounted for in the wiki...  It has cost me a year of time in game and the completion of my first macro-project. It was frustrating, but it was also fun.

TL;DR: DF is a game where learning how to play the game can be half the fun.  The other half comes from the fact that the game changes in ways that make it hard to succeed based on the fact you have mastered the use of a feature.  When it is done, DF will be the kind of game where nothing can be taken for granted, ultimate strategies can and will fall simply because something unexpected happens... just like in real life... but at the same time that doesn't mean that the ultimate strategies are useless, but simply imperfect.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3379 on: February 03, 2011, 12:45:06 am »

dwarfbot thread
Aw, man, I thought that thread was going to be about an automatic DF-playing engine.  There's bots for Starcraft and bots for Angband and I made a bot for Puzzle Pirates, so I figured maybe someone was crazy enough...
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3380 on: February 03, 2011, 12:52:05 am »

As usual, I excised many of the suggestion questions and questions that were answered by helpful people.

Quote from: Urist Imiknorris
With the continued addition of good/evil/savage/calm flora and fauna, is there any chance of eventually having good/evil/savage/calm minerals/soils? I know it would involve changing worldgen to determine surroundings before minerals, so how feasible is this?

It's quite feasible and we've considered it but haven't taken the plunge.  Random minerals should be fun.  Even the current stock minerals can be a bit confusing, and random minerals might add to that further, so further exposition of what minerals can be used for and so on might be necessary there.

Quote from: Urist Imiknorris
Will kobolds lay eggs, as was joked in (I believe) the last DF Talk?

Yeah, kobolds will lay eggs, although they'll need their homes fleshed out before you can actually find them.

Quote from: Areyar
Besides the standalone creatures, there are several vermin/parasites sponsored that (could) live on/adopt unwilling creatures.
(cave beez living in beards, leeches clinging unto exposed skin, flees/mites/crabs living in furry bits or clothes, maggots burrowing into rotten bodyparts. etc)

Will these creatures get special code as they get added or will they, for now, remain the same as the vermin we know?

I've never seen it happen yet, my dorfs generally die of infection or thirst before they lose additional limbs; is the necrosis syndrome modelled in the healthcare/wound healing system ?

The sponsored parasites should get proper support as parasites rather than free living wandering vermin.  There are necrosis wounds, but it might only happen from poisons.  I didn't get a chance to make infections interesting.

Quote from: Neonivek
Hey Did Toady change the background to the Animal Drive or is it just my computer?

Mind you on the Laptop I was using the background was 100% the Zebra stripes without the overlay for the writing.

Was Toady responsible or was it my Laptop?

I had only tested it in Firefox.  Then after I saw your post I tried it out in IE and it was doing the bad background thing, so I tweaked it until it worked in both.  I didn't try other browsers.

Quote from: Quatch
Can we see how many people and the total donation per animal?

I wanted to avoid giving any further information to avoid compromising the privacy of donors that chose to have their names listed in the raws.

Quote from: DeKaFu
With the addition of eggs and vegetable oil, it's gotten me wondering. Are there any plans to overhaul cooking at all in the near future? For example, meals that require certain ingredients to be included?

There aren't plans for the near future other than the release schedule I put up and the army stuff which is presumably coming after that, but all of the new materials certainly are suggestive of cooking and don't hurt its chances.

Quote from: Dagoth Urist
Toady One, what do you say to a monster sponsorship deal?


It was one of the ideas we had, along with trees/flowers and syndrome effects, but I'm really not sure what the future holds there.  At the very least, we need to get through the currently sponsored animals before we consider starting up anything else.

Quote from: Jiri Petru
Are there plans to do something about the abundance of food in Fortress Mode? Right now, it's extremely easy to have almost endless food stocks - plants are easy to grow in huge numbers, using only a small land and dwarfpower; meat is very abundant thanks to the recent body changes which multiplied the number of food units in each creature, and thanks to massive and edible forgotten beasts; and now we have several new food sources to make things even easier. Doesn't this mean the player's fortress is a much bigger food producer than any other settlement on the world?

The other settlements now outdo fortress food production by many times, because they are feeding by the day on more of an adventure mode scale, but they don't have the same margins in terms of excess food.  You shouldn't end up having a lot of impact on the world food market, but internally it is a bit strange.  The plans currently are the farming overhauls, which should reduce crop output a bit, and changes like livestock feeding requirements, which have started up with grazing for the next release.

Quote from: therahedwig
Will villages produce and export other goods besides food? And will they also demand materials for these?

I think it would be awesome if a nearby human town decided that they want to make walls or a special building of some kind and start mass-demanding stone blocks.

Yeah, they have a number of industries.  The towns have more industries than the agricultural villages and they often end up specializing.

Quote from: Doomshifter
So, when moving fortress pieces are implemented, how mobile will they be?

For example, will we be able to move something to any point of our map, move things off-map, move it within a certain radius/confine/prepared area?
Also:
Could we put buildings and furniture (Workshops, ballistae, beds and etc.) on them? (I ask this because of the unbuildability of bridges, our only moving fortress terrain) How will they be controlled? Powered? Locomoted? Will we be able to make moving fortresses of death?

Moving off-map seems unlikely, at least in terms of what will be worked on for that dev item, although since boat-support is part of what that framework is about, it'll be a consideration.  Buildings and anything else that can be placed in a tile will definitely be supported.  I don't have any idea about how the rest of it will work.

Quote from: Kogut
Is it likely to see any interface improvements before core element nr 25? For example - filtering for units list (now it is required to pass through all inhabitants of your fortress/or all dead creatures to reach invaders listing).

The Core system is outmoded.  In the last wall of text response, somebody asked this, and I mentioned that the stocks screen and likely the unit list would be getting updates for this release (which is now a series of releases).

Quote from: Pnx
Isn't it about time you created the 2011 page of the devlog?


Do you mean giving the 2010 stuff its own page?  I wanted to wait at least a month on that, but it is time now to split it up.

Quote from: jimi12
will only herbivore animals be eating now or will carnivores and omnivores be hunting or scavenging meat?

I'm starting with just the grazers.  I'm not sure how I want to handle the others.

Quote from: Heph
Do we get now a potter(-y) profession?

Yeah, there are six new professions.

Quote from: drvoke
Will ceramic jugs (or some other ceramic product) be used to store any food or booze?

Yeah, there should be something.  I just haven't found a name yet.  Amphora made sense, and "large vase" seems too decorative, but I'm not really happy with anything yet, since those seem too specific.  I'm not sure what the other historical examples are and if something else sounds nice and general.  It could just be the jugs, but the jugs might be smaller.  This was one of the last sort of unresolved quibbles for this release.

Quote
Quote from: NSQuote
Where would you obtain clay from?
Quote from: Areyar
It would be nice to see a mechanism where there is at least a small chance of a tile being mined out if clay mining will use the current sand collection interface. (Same for sand  actually, but less so.)

Right now it works like sand, and we were considering making it eat up the tiles after a number of uses, but it doesn't currently do that.

Quote from: Ves
Are there any plans to increase the frequency of Clay and Sand layers? Or to change what certain layers count as to make Sandy Clay a source for both Glassmaking and Pottery, for example?

The glass layers are the same, and earthenware comes from clay and <adj> clay layers, which are fairly common.  There's a new layer "fire clay" for stoneware, and the kaolinite deposits are used for porcelain.

Quote from: vlademir1
With the inclusion of pottery will more obscure things like bone ware be included by default?

I didn't put it in for this time.

Quote from: Heph
Toady does the new Ceramics stuff include enamel and decorations with enamel picture etc.? 

All I've done at this point is mono-color glazing (and then other dwarves can do whatever they like as usual in terms of jewels or metal or whatever).

Quote from: Heph
Have all ceramics to be fired or can very basic things like low quality bricks be left in the sun to dry?

There isn't a wet phase for ceramics -- that is skipped and things are fired when they are made, so there aren't any mud bricks that you just leave out.  "Ceramics" implies firing, I think, but I might be mistaken.  Mud/adobe/etc. structures aren't in the game yet, but it's certainly a reasonable thing.

Quote from: Mephansteras
Now that site resources are going to become much more important, are we going to see items start to take multiple material types anytime soon? Spears are an obvious example, since wood is much cheaper than metal and it's cheaper and more efficient to make 4 spears instead of a single longsword.

I don't have a timeline.  On the one hand, I've always been interested in multi-material, multi-part items, but there are complications, especially with using metal in small portions.

Quote from: drvoke
What will my dwarves be making in their ceramics workshops?

How many intermediate workshops will there be for ceramics from beginning of the process to the final product?
I could see it as a chain of processes such as, clay maker --> potter --> kiln operator, or even more steps for decorated objects, etc...  Or a potter who collects his own clumps of clay from mining and has a kiln in/as the workshop, so the process involves a minimum of 1 dwarf and 1 workshop, like a glass furnace.

Sort of covered in the last question, but how is clay handled in the game?  Workshop product or clumps from mining that are processed in some general "pottery" workshop into a finished piece of pottery?

Right now, as I mentioned up there, you don't set out the wet clay objects to dry before the initial firing.  So you gather clay (from a kiln).  Then you pick an object type and fire it at the kiln (currently jugs, bricks, statues, hives and crafts, I think).  Then you can optionally glaze them at the kiln (and you'll want to glaze earthenware jugs).

Quote from: Cruxador
Since beehives are now in, any chance for a parallel underground creature in the underground? Or will wax production (once that's a thing) require that you keep your fort open to the surface?

And an entirely different question,
Is honey brewable into mead?

There isn't currently an underground parallel, and I'm not sure what I think of that.  It seems like we probably shouldn't have an underground analog to everything above ground.

Mead is in.

Quote from: freeformschooler
This has probably been asked, but what are the planned uses of wax collections, once they are implemented?

Right now you can make wax crafts.  The rest of it will have to wait for the relevant parts of the game to be added (lighting/sealing/mold-coating/waterproofing etc.), mostly, although I guess a few of those other uses that are out there don't require other mechanics (polishes/beard waxes).

Quote from: Mantonio
Are there any plans for better animal control? Maybe something where dwarfs will actively remove animals from an area where they're not allowed?

You have the pasture option for next time.

Quote from: NW_Kohaku
Essentially, the question I want to ask is will the ceramics be like the one in this thread on ceramics?  Will we have just "clay" as a soil type to work with, or can we fire up any kind of soil to make terra cotta, so that it is (rightly) a material everyone with access to most types of dirt can make?  Can we wood glaze pots?  Do we need sand or crushed feldspar to glaze? Are glazes necessary to make a water-tight storage jug? Are we going to be crushing a single metal ore unit to make, say, 50 pots worth of glazes which can then be used to make decorations? I hate to think we have to use an entire metal unit for one pot's decoration.

I don't know what wood glazing is.  If that means using wood ash, it is in.  Glazing only requires the coloration right now, and like everything else, you use one unit for one item.

Quote from: drvoke
Does this basically mean even with a max number of hives on the map, beekeeping will basically be "renewable" within that limit as long as you keep unharvested ones to split into your bee farm?

Yeah.

Quote from: Mephansteras
Are we going to get people who are deathly allergic to bee stings and can die from it?

I don't have bee allergies at this point.  It's certainly a reasonable thing to add though.

Quote from: Festin
Will we have tavern brawls in the dwarf mode?

You have brawls in dwarf mode everywhere already, but it seems like something like drunkenness will have to be added with taverns.  In that case, you might have more focused troubles than before.

Quote from: Heph
Toady will the town map rewrite (shortterm release 1) just include renewed shops or will it be more in the direction of "district/alley" based placement of stuff. Like having a clothier-alley, a dyer-street or a jew-lane (these are real-life examples not some kind of political statement) where all people with the same job (or whatever) are concentrated? It makes only sense for bigger towns thought.

Yeah, we're going to try to add some additional structure, not just the improved workshops.  There will have to be respect for market locations.  They might even have walls in some cases.  With a release focusing just on this, I expect to do some interesting things, anyway.

Quote from: freeformschooler
When the economy (presumably after the caravan arc) is more fleshed out, will there be a possibility for more fleshed out specifically-for-trade goods? (coins, and so forth) Currently coins are just minted with a random engraving and/or the symbol of the civ, but it might not be hard to come up with an alternative solution.

I wasn't really sure what you were getting at here.  The coins are probably more fleshed out than many people want already, since the detail contributes to the stacking problems.

Quote from: Areyar
I see no mention of parties, musical instruments or toys in the new short-term goals.
Are behaviours involving this type of item going to be put on hold, or will the new inns and such include them.

I don't specifically have a timeline for these, although I've been wanting to do them for a long, long time, and the musicality attribute is just sort of sitting there.

Quote
Quote from: Jiri Petru
No, it's not the same. The personalities actually miss important stuff like "cruel", "evil", "ambitious", "envious" etc... But even if they were there, the main point is that numbered 0-100 scales simply aren't the way people think and stories work.

--

I seem to remember Toady talking something about how the system probably needs to be replaced because it's too modern, politically correct and generally unfitting. It was while they were talking about bandit leaders, I think, but I can't find
it.
Quote from: MrWiggles
Will the personality and need rewrite include the foot work for the the ability for dorfs to commit crime? Such as but not limited to murder, theft, and corruption? (Like embezzling)
Quote from: Heph
From my PoV we dont need actually traits for "cruelness", being "envious" or being "evil" because either they are can be calculated from the current pesonality values or are context based like the "evil" trait you mentioned. "Ambitious" could for example come from high scores in "Achievement striving", "Assertiveness" and "Self efficacy". A cruel person could have low "sympathy",  "altruism" and "cooperation" scores.
Quote from: monk12
What is involved in the Personality Rewrite? Do you have specific goals there?

I tried to find a DF Talk quote too, but the one I was thinking of might be in the one I still have to edit, so I'm confused.  In any case, yeah, I think the current facets I've got are too wishy-washy.  Instead of trying to use them as the basic axes and figuring out how something like "greed" might arise from them, it seems like using a new set which isn't focused on being non-judgmental will be more efficient.  I'm not going over to a yes/no archetype/quirk/trait system.  This will definitely include the foundations for crime, although initially we're thinking less about criminal dwarves and more about villains and their motivations in general for the army arc.  My specific goal at first is just to capture a wider breadth of dispositions, since I had trouble writing world gen AI with the current facets.  From there, I think adding personality effects to the game should be easier.  I think goals and dreams are also a part of this.  The "needs" rewrite is related to that, but we're still working that out.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3381 on: February 03, 2011, 01:02:57 am »

Quote from: Jiri Petru
Are there plans to do something about the abundance of food in Fortress Mode? Right now, it's extremely easy to have almost endless food stocks - plants are easy to grow in huge numbers, using only a small land and dwarfpower; meat is very abundant thanks to the recent body changes which multiplied the number of food units in each creature, and thanks to massive and edible forgotten beasts; and now we have several new food sources to make things even easier. Doesn't this mean the player's fortress is a much bigger food producer than any other settlement on the world?

The other settlements now outdo fortress food production by many times, because they are feeding by the day on more of an adventure mode scale, but they don't have the same margins in terms of excess food.  You shouldn't end up having a lot of impact on the world food market, but internally it is a bit strange.  The plans currently are the farming overhauls, which should reduce crop output a bit, and changes like livestock feeding requirements, which have started up with grazing for the next release.

What about the (very large) amounts of food you can get from the animals themselves? At the moment, it seems like overkill being able to feed half the fortress meals made out of a single dog, which seems like just an odd consequence of the quantification of body materials (which also have some numerical and compositional anomalies, but I have stuff up on Mantis about that).
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3382 on: February 03, 2011, 01:19:31 am »

Actually, on that topic...

Is it currently slated for animals of different sizes to require eating different amounts of food?  If elephants and hoary marmots eat the same amount of food, but give off radically different amounts of meat when butchered, then it produces a rather silly comparison of which animals are the most effective to raise...
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3383 on: February 03, 2011, 02:44:41 am »

Actually, on that topic...

Is it currently slated for animals of different sizes to require eating different amounts of food?  If elephants and hoary marmots eat the same amount of food, but give off radically different amounts of meat when butchered, then it produces a rather silly comparison of which animals are the most effective to raise...

Well, in the case of Elephants, they take a while to grow up...
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3384 on: February 03, 2011, 02:59:53 am »

Quote
<talking about traits and effect on doctors> Most players are just declaring "doctors are broken!" and reporting it as a bug.
There are broken - maybe it is really trait feature, but in that case doctors should display sth else than "No job". "On break" or even special thing for doctors. Without this doctors are broken.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3385 on: February 03, 2011, 03:08:42 am »

From what I've read a single cow could feed a family of 4 or 5 for a year.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3386 on: February 03, 2011, 03:17:29 am »

From what I've read a single cow could feed a family of 4 or 5 for a year.

Cow: 500 kg.
Family: 4 people.
Time: 365 days.

Meat/day=0,34 kg.

I think it is safe to say "single cow can deliver meat for a year" - but potatoes, rice or sth else are also neeeded.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3387 on: February 03, 2011, 03:29:54 am »

Yeah, but sadly dwarfs don't work that way.  Yet.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3388 on: February 03, 2011, 04:13:43 am »

I'm still in the dark as to what "dwarf mode inns" means specifically, but I can wait until Release 4.  Otherwise, I am extremely excited for the next update!

Mead!  Ceramics!

BEEEEEEEEES!

Another good question would have been "how far along are you in adding the sponsored animals?"  But I suppose I'm not too worried, the animal I sponsored is right near the top of the list. :D
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #3389 on: February 03, 2011, 04:34:39 am »

From what I've read a single cow could feed a family of 4 or 5 for a year.

Cow: 500 kg.
Family: 4 people.
Time: 365 days.

Meat/day=0,34 kg.

I think it is safe to say "single cow can deliver meat for a year" - but potatoes, rice or sth else are also neeeded.

Some fun with numbers (pretty rough):
On average a adult Human needs 2000-2300 kcal per day.

Well depending on which part of the cow you eat you get 100 (lung) to 870 (fat)Kcal/100g the average here is 230Kcal/100g.  340 Grams per day are then 782 kcal. Rice gives you 344 kcal per 100 grams Potatos only 70kcal/100g. Dark bread gives you 210 kcal/100g. Milk gives you 65 kcal/100g and a normal mediaeval cow should produce between 2000 and 5000 liters per year - so you get around 5 liters per day milk which means 1.25 liters per Person a day. Most fresh water fishes give on average 100kcal/100g. Lets say we have get enough potatos the cow meat, Milk for our Family of 4. Lets also take 20 Kilo (which are ~ 20 carp) fish for Fridays meal which would equal a dayly amount of 13g per person a day.

1.25 liters milk = 875kcal
340 grams cow meat= 782 kcal
200 grams potatos= 140 kcal
100 grams bread= 210 kcal
13g fish = 13 kcal
---------------------------------
= 2020 kcal per day

So yeah not counting fruits like apples etc. this would be a healthy diet. More the half of it comes from the cow. 292 kilos of potatos are needed per year which equals around 150 m (2kilo/m) of fields for them. IIrc Wheat fo 1 kilogram of bread neads 2,5m and we need 146 kilo of bread which means 365m of wheat fields.

The question is now how much grain/potatos/whatever do we get per tile? And how much grass/hay do we need do we need per cow.

edit: with fertilizing and good weather you can harvest potatoes 2 times a year.
edit: oooops yes thx Toady for all th answers. Just seen them.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 05:16:02 am by Heph »
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