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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1551567 times)

MagmaMcFry

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4290 on: April 05, 2011, 12:06:00 pm »

Is it just me or are the buildings a little out of scale? I think that the rooms are much too large. Most lower-class houses in the middle ages had really tiny rooms stuffed with tons of people, so either the houses should be much smaller, or they should be split into many small rooms (2x3 to 2x4). A bed, a table, two chairs, a cabinet and one free tile should be able to support at least three people. An inn could be about 8x8, inn "hotel" rooms could be 1x2, market stalls could be 2x2, middle-class houses should be about 6x6 inside.
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Hummingbird

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4291 on: April 05, 2011, 12:10:42 pm »

Wow, these cities remind me of first learning my way around Ankh-Morpork in Discworld MUD. Just thinking about doing that not just for one city, but for many procedurally-generated ones just makes my skin crawl (and my head hurt in advance). I'm excited!
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4292 on: April 05, 2011, 12:28:11 pm »

Is it just me or are the buildings a little out of scale? I think that the rooms are much too large. Most lower-class houses in the middle ages had really tiny rooms stuffed with tons of people, so either the houses should be much smaller, or they should be split into many small rooms (2x3 to 2x4). A bed, a table, two chairs, a cabinet and one free tile should be able to support at least three people. An inn could be about 8x8, inn "hotel" rooms could be 1x2, market stalls could be 2x2, middle-class houses should be about 6x6 inside.

Maybe each of these large buildings are many houses packed together.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4293 on: April 05, 2011, 12:45:11 pm »

Is it just me or are the buildings a little out of scale? I think that the rooms are much too large. Most lower-class houses in the middle ages had really tiny rooms stuffed with tons of people, so either the houses should be much smaller, or they should be split into many small rooms (2x3 to 2x4). A bed, a table, two chairs, a cabinet and one free tile should be able to support at least three people. An inn could be about 8x8, inn "hotel" rooms could be 1x2, market stalls could be 2x2, middle-class houses should be about 6x6 inside.

Maybe each of these large buildings are many houses packed together.

Or multiple families live in a single communal/apartment building with "soft" dividers between them.

Romans lived in multi-story apartment buildings, and were forbidden from having personal kitchens (risk of fire too great), and so had a sort of "fast food" industry where the kitchens (made of fire-proof materials) would serve food to the area.

The very poor could just live in a common room with no walls between them at all, just some straw and a place for their personal belongings (also, this is what inns are probably like for the "adventurer" with little spending cash).

There's a certain amount of inherent unrealism in the way that walls take up an entire tile in this game, when a wall is as thick as the living space of an individual, so having soft dividers that don't involve walls, but just involve saying "these three tiles are mine" would be a way of cramming people in closer together.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4294 on: April 05, 2011, 12:50:21 pm »

That scale would make any kind of combat rather boring. You need a little bit of maneuvering room.

I don't really see the point of cramming the people in like sardines... you might as well give everyone a little bit of room. That way, you can have more unique randomly generated rooms. There are only two 1x2 bedrooms- one with the bed on the right, and one with the bed on the left. A 4x5 bedroom with a bed, 2-3 containers, a decoration, and some totally random item (chair, table, statue, bookcase, ect...) has at least hundreds of variations.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4295 on: April 05, 2011, 12:58:40 pm »

Technically, you could just mirror the 1x2 room, and only make it one room.

Anyway, not everyone has to live in the same conditions - there's no reason not to have a 1x2 room for the guys who are basically just the haulers of the town, while having a 3x8 one-floor house (or one floor of a multi-floor house) for the accomplished woodcarver, and then a 4x10 three-story house for the master gemsetter.
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MagmaMcFry

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4296 on: April 05, 2011, 01:04:55 pm »

*lotsa awesome gibberish*
NW_Kohaku, how the hell do you know all this?

Also,
That scale would make any kind of combat rather boring. You need a little bit of maneuvering room.

I don't really see the point of cramming the people in like sardines... you might as well give everyone a little bit of room. That way, you can have more unique randomly generated rooms. There are only two 1x2 bedrooms- one with the bed on the right, and one with the bed on the left. A 4x5 bedroom with a bed, 2-3 containers, a decoration, and some totally random item (chair, table, statue, bookcase, ect...) has at least hundreds of variations.
Why would you want so many variations? A 4x2 room with 5 distinct furniture items already has 13440 variations, which is totally enough for me. And you already have enough maneuvering room in places outside of cities, which make up about 99,5% of any DF world. Ever had a swordfight in your bathroom? Also, support realism, because this totally isn't a fantasy setting.
/junk

Edit:
Anyway, not everyone has to live in the same conditions - there's no reason not to have a 1x2 room for the guys who are basically just the haulers of the town, while having a 3x8 one-floor house (or one floor of a multi-floor house) for the accomplished woodcarver, and then a 4x10 three-story house for the master gemsetter.
Totally.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4297 on: April 05, 2011, 01:11:52 pm »

*lotsa awesome gibberish*
NW_Kohaku, how the hell do you know all this?

I watch a lot of History Channel, and spend too much time wiki crawling Wikipedia, basically.

It's what I like about DF - it gives me the reason to go learn about vulcanism or geology or the growth cycles of fungi.
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Sizik

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4298 on: April 05, 2011, 01:42:59 pm »

However, there could be tricks to evading that sort of problem.  You could wind up with a "Shroedenger's Gun" situation, where random walkers suddenly have their empty backstory filled in if they stay in the adventurer's sight for long enough, or the adventurer actually asks them questions.  Basically, the first 150 steps, they are just walking randomly, but then suddenly, they were going to the market that's in the direction they were walking in the direction of, and their home was in the direction they were walking away from, because now that the adventurer is following them and presumably might be looking at them, they have to have a purpose all of a sudden.

That would require a largish reserve of completely ambiguous buildings, where none of the details of who lives there matter until the player is actually looking at them.  It might also get complicated if a player can basically set up shop in a single neighborhood, and starts to get to know all the neighbors, at which point a large chunk of territory in the city might become "known", and you can't pull some of these tricks as easily.

Peasant1: (Oh shit, here comes the PC!)
Player: Hello good sir, may I enquire as to where you're heading?
Peasant1: Umm... Well I was going to the... market! Yeah, that's it, the market. I'm going to the market to buy some...potatoes. From the market. To feed my family, et cetera.
Player: Well then, good day!
Peasant1: (That was a close one. Aw, now I have to go to the market and buy potatoes so that he doesn't catch on to the truth.)

Reminds me a bit of the Truman Show.
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Sowelu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4299 on: April 05, 2011, 02:32:17 pm »

Is it me, or are a lot of those roads just too small?  I saw a lot of people talking about central industries, and I know that buildings will get larger over time and crafts more centralized, but regardless of whether cities are blocky or spiderweb patterned I still expected to see some regions with massive wide streets and some with two or three tile wide alleys...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4300 on: April 05, 2011, 02:46:02 pm »

Is it me, or are a lot of those roads just too small?  I saw a lot of people talking about central industries, and I know that buildings will get larger over time and crafts more centralized, but regardless of whether cities are blocky or spiderweb patterned I still expected to see some regions with massive wide streets and some with two or three tile wide alleys...

Hopefully, along with larger and smaller building sizes, plus bridges, we will get major roads, as well.
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4301 on: April 05, 2011, 03:03:07 pm »

People should amplify their relaxed states. Toady spent only about five days for the game to generate these maps. Give the man a month and everything will be still better.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4302 on: April 05, 2011, 03:12:46 pm »

Is it me, or are a lot of those roads just too small?  I saw a lot of people talking about central industries, and I know that buildings will get larger over time and crafts more centralized, but regardless of whether cities are blocky or spiderweb patterned I still expected to see some regions with massive wide streets and some with two or three tile wide alleys...

well, we have lots of medieval town around here and their road are seriously small and twisted. that's to say, two people could not walk along.

look, this is Spello: http://goo.gl/maps/YI4s
you should see the one road, that would give you a sense of scale of the passageways between houses.
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Knigel

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4303 on: April 05, 2011, 03:46:37 pm »

Is there some resource gathering going on? Basically, I'm just wondering if it is possible to encounter a city with unfinished walls, or a castle where just the keep has been finished.

Or cities made entirely out of things such as sand or platinum ore.
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4304 on: April 05, 2011, 03:54:53 pm »

Or cities made entirely out of things such as sand or platinum ore.

Unlikely, as since 31.19 resources are tracked by ammount in world gen.
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