Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 286 287 [288] 289 290 ... 342

Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 470310 times)

Korgus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4305 on: April 05, 2011, 04:29:17 pm »

I've seen fortresses in this version made of lignite and horn silver. Could be interesting to see an entire city made of gold or coal or something.
Logged
F*** your pointy ears I've my dwarves inside.
And f*** your wooden swords I've my dwarves inside.
F*** your bins of cloth I've my dwarves inside.
If you're looking to be killed I've my dwarves outside.

LoSboccacc

  • Bay Watcher
  • Σὺν Ἀθηνᾷ καὶ χεῖρα κίνει
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4306 on: April 05, 2011, 04:41:36 pm »

I've seen fortresses in this version made of lignite and horn silver. Could be interesting to see an entire city made of gold or coal or something.

just because there aren't (yet) fire arrows :P
Logged

Dante

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dante likes cats for their corrupt intentions.
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4307 on: April 05, 2011, 04:41:48 pm »

pick a city center
grow outwards until the city is attacked in world gen
encase it in a wall
continue to grow outward.

Excellent idea, but world gen varies enough that different rates of wall-building to different rates of attack would have to be buffered a bit.
To prevent things like

LoSboccacc

  • Bay Watcher
  • Σὺν Ἀθηνᾷ καὶ χεῖρα κίνει
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4308 on: April 05, 2011, 04:47:03 pm »

I think that inner walls are usually scraped for materials.
Logged

Dradym

  • Bay Watcher
  • if its hard, overly complex, but fun, its a dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4309 on: April 05, 2011, 04:50:53 pm »

or they become houses
Logged

Cruxador

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4310 on: April 05, 2011, 05:53:01 pm »

Is it me, or are a lot of those roads just too small?  I saw a lot of people talking about central industries, and I know that buildings will get larger over time and crafts more centralized, but regardless of whether cities are blocky or spiderweb patterned I still expected to see some regions with massive wide streets and some with two or three tile wide alleys...

well, we have lots of medieval town around here and their road are seriously small and twisted. that's to say, two people could not walk along.

look, this is Spello: http://goo.gl/maps/YI4s
you should see the one road, that would give you a sense of scale of the passageways between houses.
But still, some are bigger than others, which is what he was talking about.
Logged

Jothki

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4311 on: April 05, 2011, 06:26:33 pm »

Both of these are different from a quest to deliver serious bodily harm to the kobolds living in the sewers.

Speaking of that, I have to wonder if the cities are going to eventually have enormous explorable sewer systems. Completely unrealistic, but they're a cherished RPG tradition.
Logged

Kishmond

  • Bay Watcher
  • What the pfargtl?
    • View Profile
    • My DF Stories blog.
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4312 on: April 05, 2011, 06:51:01 pm »



It's Ankh-Morpork!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No Ankh though.

monk12

  • Bay Watcher
  • Sorry, I AM a coyote
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4313 on: April 05, 2011, 08:47:30 pm »

Both of these are different from a quest to deliver serious bodily harm to the kobolds living in the sewers.

Speaking of that, I have to wonder if the cities are going to eventually have enormous explorable sewer systems. Completely unrealistic, but they're a cherished RPG tradition.

I know it was mentioned in the old dev goals- it comes up every now and then when the Poo question arises.

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: ACCEPTABLE]
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4314 on: April 05, 2011, 09:09:45 pm »

Both of these are different from a quest to deliver serious bodily harm to the kobolds living in the sewers.

Speaking of that, I have to wonder if the cities are going to eventually have enormous explorable sewer systems. Completely unrealistic, but they're a cherished RPG tradition.

I know it was mentioned in the old dev goals- it comes up every now and then when the Poo question arises.

At this point, I might as well have a text document with a form response that I can copy-paste any time this topic comes up...

From a Reddit article:
Quote from: Toady One
I like fertilizer, animal tracking and sewers. I dislike potty breaks. This is an example of realism that I think has a lot of potential for trouble. Potty breaks in adventure mode might be realistic, but there are immersion issues there. He he he, I mean in the sense of the player being kicked out of their groove. The other kind of immersion wouldn't be so bad, because sewers are common adventure environments. In dwarf mode, dwarves already take a lot of time out for self-maintenance, and this would be a more senseless kind, compared to something like eating.

I also remember a quote from before talking about how it would be bad to have only animals produce waste, because then if you somehow were transformed into a donkey, you'd start doing it.

Also:
Quote from: Old Devlist
# PowerGoal153, THE CRACKS OF DOOM, (Future): You flee into the sewer with the baron's ring, but sliding in the muck, you drop it. Try as you might, you cannot locate the precious object in the town's filth.

Also:
Quote from: DF Talk
Rainseeker:   So there's no poo creatures either?
Toady:   It was a close thing! Because it was literally a decision I had to make, going down this list, because in the Hidden Fun Stuff of course if you get the tentacle demons then you get a layer scattered with various filth on the ground; and there's brown filth and yellow filth and so on and it's not clearly stated but it's a material that I had to put in properties for right? So there's these hard-coded filth materials, and when I was going down the list, you know 'Do I want creatures made out of mud? Do I want creatures made out of vomit? Do I want creatures made out of glass?', there's all these hard-coded materials, and I was just like 'Yeah, yeah, yeah ... No ... No ...' on the filth. But there are creatures made out of the grime, and the grime material is the material that collects on your body slowly over time, and it's also the material that's used in swamp water, so there's this ... I just needed this material called 'grime' for these miscellaneous purposes, it's just crap, just stuff that collects over time and when a creature is made out of that it just says 'composed of grime and filth'. So if you want to call that 'poo' even though it's not it's possible for you to extend your imagination.

See also the wiki page on Material Tokens, where they list that brown and yellow filth are indeed one of the few materials that are hardcoded into the game.  As in those two materials already exist in the game, it's just that nothing produces them as of yet.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
The Economy isn't like a big truck.  It's more like a series of rubes.

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

veok

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4315 on: April 05, 2011, 11:35:48 pm »

Are you happy with the way Vermin have turned out? Recent updates have brought in very small non-vermin creatures such as rabbits, guinea pigs, chickens, etc. Where does the line fall?

Incidentally, some of these small creatures aren't large enough to produce meat when butchered. Any chance of partial meat-units (a la fat's "globs") to make it so killing rabbits eventually nets you enough meat for a +Rabbit Stew+ ?
Logged

Footkerchief

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Juffo-Wup is strong in this place.
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4316 on: April 05, 2011, 11:58:44 pm »

Incidentally, some of these small creatures aren't large enough to produce meat when butchered. Any chance of partial meat-units (a la fat's "globs") to make it so killing rabbits eventually nets you enough meat for a +Rabbit Stew+ ?

Cf. 0003993: Cavies and rabbits produce no meat when slaughtered, but caravan still brings rabbit meat
Logged

Toady One

  • The Great
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bay12games.com
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4317 on: April 06, 2011, 12:10:42 am »

I moved the questions on the new city maps etc. to the top for convenience.

Quote from: Japa
Toady, will we be having cities that extend beyond the walls? or cities without walls?

Yeah.  It can handle multiple internal walls/gates (tested, but doesn't place any yet) while still managing a fairly decent building density, and it retains the old fields outside of smaller town maps (walls or not), though I might have to rewrite the field placement code to correspond to more manageable shapes that link in with the new system if the towns end up changing more over time after play begins.  Right now the towns are very shrinkable/extendible, but fields are less so.

Quote
Quote from: Aqizzar
Chalk me up for another person who think the cities would likely be a bear to navigate, by the current standards of navigation in Adventure Mode.
Quote from: Untelligent
When towns have various important buildings in them and other stuff to do, will there be any plans to prevent intra-city walks from being too long and monotonous?
Quote from: darkflagrance
Will there be any kind of navigational tools like signposts or slabposts, or perhaps even a system where villages guide adventurers in place so that the player doesn't easily get lost in these cities?

The things we are looking at now are letting people move along roads on the travel map (they already appear there), and where internal walls make that have too small a resolution, to provide a new zoomed-in-3x map splitting the travel map that a resolution appropriate for all city travel.  Then there's asking directions.  You should not end up having to take 800 steps to get straight across town -- if there is a road without obstacles, it should just be the 15-17 steps on the travel map, and if there's an intervening wall or river, you might have to take ~50 steps on the 3x map.  We'll see how these maps interfere with a sense of exploration in new cities, and then uncover them as you move around, perhaps, or limit their use in extreme cases perhaps.  In any case, I'm going to try to remain mindful of the annoyances.

Quote from: onodera
Will building materials reflect the location of the city and the importance of the building?
I imagine a city on the plains will have mostly brick buildings, with only the city hall and the cathedral made of stone. We just need to get adobe bricks or more charcoal from one log or animal poo fuel, because it'll be easier to build it out of wood now.

Each building stores its material, so theoretically it shouldn't be a problem once we get into important buildings.  Right now it just throws a civ wood in there.  It'll be good to differentiate even the simple buildings a bit, but that might have to be done through shop signage for the shops.  I'm not sure what the deal is with paint or whatever.

Quote from: Osmosis Jones
Those city designs look crazy awesome! I have to ask though, will we have things like central keeps, inside a second wall?

Also, will the cities get divided into districts? Say a livestock/butchers/tanners section downwind of the city, or cramped and dingy slums/ghettos & more expensive and spacious rich districts?

I'm not sure when castles will be placed in the towns.  It can handle it map-wise, so it's just a matter of time -- world gen would need to respect city+fortress combinations.  The cities will have some division to them.  I'm not sure if there's going to be a rich/poor distinction until the manor release, and even then I guess it'll be up to the town -- it is my understanding that depending on how property acquisition worked etc., you might have highly integrated towns or towns with separated rich/poor areas.  Right now, we just have the division of labor that arises during world gen, which will allow us to divide up the town somewhat based on the workshop types.

Quote from: B0013
Also, will there be variations of city layouts beetween different human civilizations? Like, if a civ makes more "organic" looking cities another may make them more rigid (larger roads, no curves, etc.)

Eventually.  First I need to get anything working, and then variety can start to arise, both in the overall layout and in the individual buildings.  The number and regularity of intersections, road width, building size etc. is all pretty easy to control now.

Quote from: Jiri Petru
How does the building process in world-gen work? Are the large buildings like walls or castles built gradually, segment after segment, or do they just pop into existence overnight? Is there some resource gathering going on? Basically, I'm just wondering if it is possible to encounter a city with unfinished walls, or a castle where just the keep has been finished.

You can't see anything happen gradually yet.  There are stone resource stockpiles, but it doesn't tie into giant constructions yet.  Eventually it should work out -- the walls and towers are pretty modular, so having half-constructed buildings that get finished during play outside of view is certainly feasible, though making it happen if you are sitting there staring might not be quite so easy.

Quote from: freeformschooler
Are all those orange rectangles ALL buildings?

Yeah -- I haven't done larger buildings or market squares or whatever else, so we just have lots of similar buildings (some of these will have internal walls).  It'll be a bit different by the release, but we aren't really going to get into it until taverns/manors/inns a few releases down the line.

Quote from: Chthonic
For a city of the size presented, are shops going to be scattered throughout?  Is there going to be one great central market?  Or little clusters of shops serving different parts of the city?

In the maximal cities presented, there will be at least one giant market, and perhaps some smaller ones -- they'll probably be stalls grouped by type, some permanent.  Then there will be shops -- for now, perhaps the majority of the buildings depending on the most prevalent professions.

Quote from: NW_Kohaku
What models are there governing population growth and decline?  Where do you want it to go - a simple and streamlined abstract model of growth and decline based upon a tally of upward population growth forces and downward pressures on populations, or a very gritty and detailed model where every wave of disease is tracked, so that there will be history events of the great city fire of 231?

The problem with that is that starvation doesn't seem to be modelled very well at all - people just keep eating normally right up until there's only food for 30% of them left, and so 70% of the population just sits there and waits to die.

Starvation doesn't work quite that blindly in world gen, but even when they try to save up for hard times and go as far as infanticide (cutting pop growth rate), they can't really forage or disperse right now -- they don't know how to move -- which is when they start to die off.  It has all of the food and population tracked numerically, so they just need more methods to deal with unexpected crop failures or missing caravans or overall food shortages.  Since it is tracking everything, historical citations of specific instances of famine etc. is just a matter of detecting/adding historical events now when something bad happens over a period of weeks.  The new slowness in world gen comes from pushing all of this info around.  When we get to disease, I'm sure that'll be tracked site by site, pop by pop, over the years as well.

Quote from: Greiger
I'm no expert on what a carnivore can or cannot eat (It probably varies between species) but when you get around to getting goblins properly eating in worldgen would any dietary changes have any effect on fortress mode?  Or are the checks to see what a civ can eat separate between worldgen and the game modes?  Are you satisfied with the goblins' current menu?

Goblins are not going to need to eat.  That is intentional.  They might enjoy eating certain things though, but I don't think any significant changes are going to come from it.

Quote from: Heph
the grass raws include now tissues which is nice but could it support more indepth stuff like a simplifyed body-defintion (which would be nice for shrubs too).

I'm not sure how that's going to play out.  They won't have limbs like creatures do that are always the same.  Multi-tile trees need to have different shapes.

Quote from: madjoe5
Will trees and shrubs ever be expanded on (in terms of the Evil/Good) more so, like grass. We have one Good and one Evil for each, I think, but I it seems we have lots of fantasy-flavored grasses.

I think there are two grasses were there might be one tree for each sort of thing, at least for good/evil/savage.  No clue when that'll change.

Quote from: Mephansteras
When animals get revisited, are we going to be able to designate fodder spaces that get filled? Currently you can't just tie up a grazing animal somewhere and expect it to live long.

I don't know what the mechanic will be, but something will have to happen there with hay and whatever else.

Quote
Quote from: Captain Mayday
How do Grazing, Hunger, and grass growth work alongside each other?

To be more specific, I can see that the GRAZER:X token allows X hunger to be removed for every unit of grass eaten.
What determines the rate at which hunger increases? Is creature size a factor?
Is a 'unit' of grass simply 1/4 the maximum amount that is growing on a space?

If creature size is a factor in determining rate of hunger, why is there such an enormous difference in how much hunger is removed?
Quote from: NW_Kohaku
The average creature gets 1 turn every 10 frames, and one of those turns has to be used moving, so any creature with Grazer:19 or less cannot feed itself. An elephant, which only removes 12 hunger per eating of grass, is on a countdown to starvation the instant that hunger is in place.

Hunger increases 1 each frame, but they don't have to move to eat, so elephants can technically survive (they gain 2 per 10 frames for 1000 frames then have to move once, net positive), but in practice they won't likely survive long since they have to do their movement very effectively to keep it up.  It'll be better when they can browse.  I haven't revisited the overall system at this point, but I doubt the hunger variable would survive it.

Quote from: Urist Da Vinci
Are the hardcoded "fire breath", "fireball toss", "dragon fire breath", and "shoot web" behaviours considered complete, or placeholder? I ask because breath attacks and secretions with associated materials have been added. The glittery balls of fire that fire imps toss look pretty, but they don't appear to do anything in arena mode, even if you get hit by dozens. Back in 0.28.181.40d, those balls could be lethal, so the code appears to outdated. Do you intend to merge the hardcoded breath weapons into the material breath system?

Obviously it needs to be changed, but I'm not sure what the solution is going to be.

Quote from: isitanos
Toady, with your mineral veins rework are we gonna see the return of chasms and underground rivers?

That probably won't be the time for it, but the placement of larger scale mineral features that span more than a 48x48x1 will increase abilities there a bit for the future.

Quote from: freeformschooler
For the "explorer/archeologist" adventurer role type... what are the plans for generating ancient ruins and dungeons and so on? Is the ideal something like a random Legend of Zelda, with each room elaborately linked up by your great precursors? Are they going to be anything like the caverns we have today? Or should we expect them to meld into the rest of the world as easily as possible?

It's going to be based on what happened in world gen, but some strange things will be added to world gen to make them more interesting -- tombs and prisons, etc., and once a location can be used over time for different purposes, it should be interesting.  A given tomb might be sort of weird and Zelda-y in that way, since it can engage in arbitrary trap-and-interesting-thing placement under the guise of keeping out graverobbers and respecting the dead.  I think the last two DF Talks had some related Q&A with a bit more detail you can find in the transcripts.

Quote from: LoSboccacc
will be there a separation between the handling/working of fortress/civilizations relationships and fortress/fair relationship?  that is, is in the plans having fair out of fortress control (apart quantity/quality influenced by zones and wealth and stuff like that) and detailed trade agreement between civilizations/important sites (and the keyword here is detailed) or something like that

Without hill dwarves, fairs associated to the fort would occur on fortress grounds, and you'd have that sort of control over what's going on there.  Also, normally, the fairs will involve various trade agreements between whoever, but in fort mode, the time is compressed and a little screwy that way, so it might be that fort fairs are far more fort-centric than other fairs that occur on sites.  We'll have to see how that plays out.  I'm not sure if that addresses your questions though.  I don't have all the details yet.

Quote from: Jiri Petru
Are there any plans for an in-fortress economy in the near future (I mean as part of the next few updates)? It's not specifically mentioned on the list but seeing as this is the "caravan arc", i though might be hidden under a larger goal.

When we get to taverns and inns, we'll see what comes up.  That would be a time to try something, but I'm going to stay focused on the stated goals as best as I can.  Which isn't saying much, I guess, he he he.

Quote from: Lovechild
When 3D mineral veins are in, how will you know when they go upwards or downwards (without digging stairs everywhere)?

If you reach the end of a vein, digging down in one spot shouldn't be a big deal, but if they have a weird spidery shape up and down then it might be harder, but then you'd be hitting them in more places on every level anyway.  We'll have to see what comes up.

Quote from: freeformschooler
Now that we have bamboo, will we ever be able to chop it down and make bamboo crafts? Currently it is only a grass, which is technically correct, but...

It's probably on the same unstated time-table as hay and straw.

Quote from: Areyar
Say, I was thinking of the future multitile trees. Will this mean multiple types of wood from variaous 'tissues' as well?
For instance high quality log, fit for working into anything (or the planks IIRC you mentioned once). and branches/roots (low quality wood/debris), perfect for coalburning, building fences or stuff requiring small bits of wood (bolts, beads etc?).

It could.  I can't promise anything.  The main thing will be to get elves up, probably.

Quote
Quote from: monk12
What happens to the hill dwarves when a fortress is abandoned/destroyed?
Quote from: nenjin
Toady: How do you see Fort mode migration waves changing in light of the Hill Dwarf feature, if at all? Would it still be the primary source of new dwarves? Would people migrate to become Hill Dwarves instead of Fort Dwarves?

Migration will need to be changed -- your main source of new fort dwarves might just be hill dwarves in some situations, though far-away migrants that get admitted to the fort would probably be more skilled on average.  In that way, it's hard to see how a lost game could accompany anything but the total loss/conquest of the hill dwarves as well -- either through battle or morale failure.  The start situation might involve some notion that links continued play to certain dwarves (one religion, one family, etc.) that takes many of the hill dwarves out of the equation.  In that case, perhaps a loss might not involve losing the settlement at all, but I haven't really thought about it much yet.

Quote from: EmeraldWind
When the caravans begin to move around the map, will there be caravans for every trade route or caravans that travel along multiple trade routes?

To clarify, if Town A has trade routes with B, C, and D. Will we see three caravans coming and going between the towns or will Town A have a single caravan going to B, C, and D?

Will the caravans be sent by bigger towns going to the smaller towns or will the smaller towns send trade caravans to the bigger towns or will both be possible?

It's going to depend on who is running the caravan and what good exchanges are involved.  I can see a single caravan making it across the world or local carriers that never get away from one town.  I'm still not sure exactly how the larger ones are going to work though.  This release will have people moving between towns and villages, but the rest is going to get sorted out later in the release list.

Quote from: Uristocrat
It sounds like there are some geology changes anticipated in Release 2.  Is there anything that players could research that would be helpful?

Hard to say...  I'm going to try to add some new overall structures to it, and if people have favorites it might speed things up a bit.

Quote from: veok
Are you happy with the way Vermin have turned out? Recent updates have brought in very small non-vermin creatures such as rabbits, guinea pigs, chickens, etc. Where does the line fall?

It's certainly an uncomfortable line.  I didn't really want to make chickens vermin though, since it complicates pasturing/nest boxes, and that bumped the line down to something odd, and there are some bugs to be fixed.  I'm not sure what the future holds.
Logged
The Toad, a Natural Resource:  Preserve yours today!

devek

  • Bay Watcher
  • [KILL_EVERYTHING]
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4318 on: April 06, 2011, 01:06:15 am »

Quote from: DF Talk
Rainseeker:   So there's no poo creatures either?
Toady:   It was a close thing! Because it was literally a decision I had to make, going down this list, because in the Hidden Fun Stuff of course if you get the tentacle demons then you get a layer scattered with various filth on the ground; and there's brown filth and yellow filth and so on and it's not clearly stated but it's a material that I had to put in properties for right? So there's these hard-coded filth materials, and when I was going down the list, you know 'Do I want creatures made out of mud? Do I want creatures made out of vomit? Do I want creatures made out of glass?', there's all these hard-coded materials, and I was just like 'Yeah, yeah, yeah ... No ... No ...' on the filth. But there are creatures made out of the grime, and the grime material is the material that collects on your body slowly over time, and it's also the material that's used in swamp water, so there's this ... I just needed this material called 'grime' for these miscellaneous purposes, it's just crap, just stuff that collects over time and when a creature is made out of that it just says 'composed of grime and filth'. So if you want to call that 'poo' even though it's not it's possible for you to extend your imagination.

See also the wiki page on Material Tokens, where they list that brown and yellow filth are indeed one of the few materials that are hardcoded into the game.  As in those two materials already exist in the game, it's just that nothing produces them as of yet.

There also seems to be some hard-coded creatures, such as "CREATURE_1" through "CREATURE_22".
Logged
Dwarf Foreman 0.7.3 check it out! (With .25 support!)
"Why do people rebuild things that they know are going to be destroyed? Why do people cling to life when they know they can't live forever?"

thvaz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #4319 on: April 06, 2011, 02:28:54 am »

Thanks for the answers, Toady.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 286 287 [288] 289 290 ... 342