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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page  (Read 1583274 times)

nenjin

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5085 on: May 10, 2011, 06:20:03 pm »

I like the choice of terms. "Secret" can mean anything and gets to the core of what traditional magical/religious systems were all about: exploring the great mysteries. I think the choice of the term sets the tone for how Toady sees his magic system eventually. He said he wanted something more interesting and thoughtful than color magic...and starting from the precept of secrets is a good start.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5086 on: May 10, 2011, 06:27:01 pm »

Yes, So I guess you like "Pranksters" Nenjin :P

Eat that! Previous page ignorance!
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5087 on: May 10, 2011, 06:35:10 pm »

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Just hearing a secret shouldn't usually do anything beyond granting the capacity to use it. Maybe in some particularly unusual instances it would, but I wouldn't care to see that be the norm

It is a common theme that arcane knowledge were not meant for mortals to have. Either the power corrupting them or the secrets by their very nature corrupt those that know it. For example in Lovecraftian universes it is that the true knowledge of the world is inherantly maddening and we remain ignorant for our own safety/sanity.
Can you cite any examples other than the Lovecraft mythos? Historically, I'm pretty sure such ideas are almost nonexistent.

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Connotation. Calling it "arcane", while technically accurate, implies it is generic magic

But instead it is "Secrets" which implies 'cheating'.
I don't see an implication of cheating. I don't see where you're coming from on this at all. Perhaps our cultural backgrounds differ in this.

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I am just surprised because it is probably the MOST accurate use of "Arcane" I ever seen and yet it isn't going to have its name. It is almost disapointing. It is like seeing someone use classical fairies and call them "Pranksters".
Sadly I feel that "arcane" has drifted too far from its original meaning. Considering classical fairies are often called "the fae" in modern times, significant drift of meaning appears to have happened there too. Language changes. You may not like it, but it happens.

Yes, So I guess you like "Pranksters" Nenjin :P

Eat that! Previous page ignorance!
He is not necessarily ignorant of it. Consider that he may have ignored your argument as uncompelling, or even have been responding to it, ignoring your comparison as irrelevant.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5088 on: May 10, 2011, 06:42:32 pm »

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Can you cite any examples other than the Lovecraft mythos?

-Catholocism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam... So them
-Dungeons and Dragons
-Dr. Who
-Celtic Mythology (if I remember correctly)
-Science! Knowing something changes the outcome!

:P

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I don't see an implication of cheating. I don't see where you're coming from on this at all.

For the most part I was being whimsy.

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He is not necessarily ignorant of it. Consider that he may have ignored your argument as uncompelling, or even have been responding to it, ignoring your comparison as irrelevant

Ohh I was mostly poking fun that his post entirely invalidated mine by virtue that it kicked the page up. So I made a quip that he liked "Pranksters" a phrase that no one will even know where it came from because no one would have read the previous page.

In otherwords Insiders.

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Language changes. You may not like it, but it happens

Actually in this case it didn't. The only difference is the people who will jump on the word Arcane.

The best reason I came up with as to why Toady didn't use Arcane, other then objecting any words that refer to magic, was because "What would I call magic magic?".

I mean could you imagine the confusion when someone has to refer to magic magic when there is something already there called "The Arcane" or "Arcane Knowledge"?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 06:50:55 pm by Neonivek »
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5089 on: May 10, 2011, 06:51:07 pm »

On a positiv note: Zen-buddhism. Suddenly understanding for eaxample a Koan can lead to "enlightment" or atleast to much more wisdom.


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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5090 on: May 10, 2011, 06:53:15 pm »

On a positiv note: Zen-buddhism. Suddenly understanding for eaxample a Koan can lead to "enlightment" or atleast to much more wisdom.

Ahh yes, I forgot about "Possitive secret knowledge" that changes people.
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5091 on: May 10, 2011, 06:56:02 pm »

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Can you cite any examples other than the Lovecraft mythos?
-Catholocism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam... So them
Cite instances of this, please. As far as I'm aware, this is not a tenet of Abrahamic religions. Being somewhat educated in history and theology, I would be quite surprised to learn of something of this nature.
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-Dungeons and Dragons
The Far Realm does this, but it's Lovecraft with a coat of paint, so that hardly counts. Other than that, Arcane power doesn't corrupt any more than other sorts of power do.
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-Dr. Who
I'm not particularly familiar with the franchise, so I'll accept this as probably valid, but a show about fighting aliens and time traveling isn't really the same tone as DF.

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Language changes. You may not like it, but it happens

Actually in this case it didn't. The only difference is the people who will jump on the word Arcane.
It is possible I am misunderstanding this. If you mean what I think you mean:
The change is to the connotation and perceived meaning of the word. Because language is formed by consensus, if the word is perceived to have different meaning, it does have different meaning. Hence, change.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5092 on: May 10, 2011, 07:02:01 pm »

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"Cite instances of this, please"

While I could get into other examples including writings on the corrupting nature of demonology. The EASIEST example would be "Adam and Eve" with the "Fruit of knowledge of good and evil".

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Other than that, Arcane power doesn't corrupt any more than other sorts of power do

It corrupts but not mechanically because that would just be horrible as a mechanic. This is of course ignoring the many powers in dungeons and dragons that ARE knowledge that kills, drives people insane, and stuuf, or the monsters and gods in dungeons and dragons that attack by basically revealing maddening knowledge.

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The change is to the connotation and perceived meaning of the word. Because language is formed by consensus, if the word is perceived to have different meaning, it does have different meaning. Hence, change.

Yes but in this case the conotation didn't alter the meaning of the word. It only made it carry extra meaning that isn't required.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 07:05:31 pm by Neonivek »
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Dante

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5093 on: May 10, 2011, 07:07:00 pm »

He is not necessarily ignorant of it. Consider that he may have ignored your argument as uncompelling, or even have been responding to it, ignoring your comparison as irrelevant.

I find most of Neonivek's arguments uncompelling, but to be fair, it's often because I can't understand what s/he's trying to say.

Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5094 on: May 10, 2011, 07:11:22 pm »

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"Cite instances of this, please"

While I could get into other examples including writings on the corrupting nature of demonology. The EASIEST example would be "Adam and Eve" with the "Fruit of knowledge of good and evil".
They gained the knowledge of good and evil and thus were able to do good and evil.

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Other than that, Arcane power doesn't corrupt any more than other sorts of power do

It corrupts but not mechanically because that would just be horrible as a mechanic.[/quote]cite examples of it corrupting in fluff?
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This is of course ignoring the many powers in dungeons and dragons that ARE knowledge that kills, drives people insane, and stuuf.
Oh, that's true. There are some spells like that, especially in 4e.

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The change is to the connotation and perceived meaning of the word. Because language is formed by consensus, if the word is perceived to have different meaning, it does have different meaning. Hence, change.

Yes but in this case the conotation didn't alter the meaning of the word. It only made it carry extra meaning that isn't required.
Whether you think it's required or not, it makes the word carry extra meaning which it now carries. The meaning now encompasses additional information. Hence, it is altered.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5095 on: May 10, 2011, 07:14:18 pm »

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it's often because I can't understand what s/he's trying to say.

Neonivek Translation is quite the 'secret'. It probably would drive you insane... or cause you to ascend. Maybe both.

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They gained the knowledge of good and evil and thus were able to do good and evil.

Which represents a stark alteration in their very being. A dramatic alteration just by knowing good and evil.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 07:15:58 pm by Neonivek »
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5096 on: May 10, 2011, 07:26:57 pm »

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"Cite instances of this, please"

While I could get into other examples including writings on the corrupting nature of demonology. The EASIEST example would be "Adam and Eve" with the "Fruit of knowledge of good and evil".

They gained the knowledge of good and evil and thus were able to do good and evil.

JFYI, this is likely a rather poor literal translation, with the actual phrase probably meaning something more like "knowledge of all things" and having less of a moral connotation. Even if this isn't true, I'm not sure there's any real popular doctrine stating that they didn't know of right and wrong before eating the fruit.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5097 on: May 10, 2011, 07:32:13 pm »

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Can you cite any examples other than the Lovecraft mythos?
-Catholocism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam... So them
Cite instances of this, please. As far as I'm aware, this is not a tenet of Abrahamic religions. Being somewhat educated in history and theology, I would be quite surprised to learn of something of this nature.

The example that sprang to mind for me was when Moses asks to see God's glory and God's like "Nope you'd die if you saw my face, you can peep my back though."  This part.
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Dakk

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5098 on: May 10, 2011, 07:41:31 pm »

I also remember of a quote from a catholic priest or saint I read in House Of Leaves, who had a vision of strange and absolutely alien world that terrified him. He said something along the lines of "such a place, beyond the understanding of man and defying all laws of nature, surely this is the house of god".

There's also plenty of examples in the bible and in catholic writings, such as the arc of the covenant, which contain the ten commandments, write by the hand of god himself, whose power is so enormous and incomprehensible that merely touching it can kill a man, and seraphims who cover themselves with 2 of their 3 pair of wings, apparently because their form is beyond human understanding that merely gazing at it would mean ruin, and they are described as the creatures most similar to god.

Basicaly the christian god is, at times, sort of like an eldritch abomination, and at times he seems pretty human.

There's also several real life examples of scientists and the like comming to a conclusion in something and apparently going insane.

This monk apparently went insane from realizing just how big the universe is.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 07:49:48 pm by Dakk »
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« Reply #5099 on: May 10, 2011, 09:06:42 pm »


There's also plenty of examples in the bible and in catholic writings, such as the arc of the covenant, which contain the ten commandments, write by the hand of god himself, whose power is so enormous and incomprehensible that merely touching it can kill a man, and seraphims who cover themselves with 2 of their 3 pair of wings, apparently because their form is beyond human understanding that merely gazing at it would mean ruin, and they are described as the creatures most similar to god.


Well, the Ark of the Covenant is more of a Jewish thing- kinda like their version of the Holy Grail. And the idea of [/url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_mysteries]sacred mysteries[/url] is a pretty common theme in Judeo-Christian and ancient Greek traditions. Depending on your particular faith and the mystery in question, the answer to a sacred mystery is either something you get after going through the initiation (especially common in Greek/Roman cults, and early Christianity) or is a way of describing one of the great mysteries of Life, the answer to which is unknowable unless God tells you.

To quote that article, "The word mysterion (μυστήριον) is used 27 times in the New Testament. It denotes not so much the meaning of the modern English term mystery, but rather something that is mystical. In the biblical Greek, the term refers to "that which, being outside the unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation.""

As far as all this relates to DF, we know that there are certain ineffable secrets about the nature of the world that demons/gods can spell out to whatever vessel they choose. We know that they can do certain crazy things like allow the raising of the dead, which implies that less profound things are certainly within reach.



Will secrets make an appearance in dwarf mode any time soon?

Lets say that a demon relates a secret to a man in world gen. That man writes it down on his fancy stone tablet. A megabeast then steals that tablet and takes it back to his lair. World gen ends, and the player embarks with their dwarves on that lair. Will the tablet be there for the dwarves to find? When can we expect some kind of meaningful interaction with that kind of world-gen artifact?

Do you foresee secrets playing a role in the formation/abilities/motives of cults in world-gen?

Obviously the Lovecraftian mythos is big on the "learn secret of the Old Ones, go mad from the revelation, work to summon them so they can kill us all and end our miserable insignificant existences" kind of cult, but I for one would like to find cults based on secrets learned from other spheres. Glancing at the list, I can imagine some kind god giving a mortal the secret of Happiness at which point he goes spreading it around, causing all kinds of shenanigans. And some of the weird ones could be quite entertaining- having to foil the machinations of the Cult of Muck as an adventurer could be all kinds of amusing, not to mention baffling once you make it to the head of the cult and he whips out whatever secret is associated with that sphere.
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