Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Drink industry  (Read 3433 times)

qrazydraqon

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Drink industry
« on: July 12, 2010, 06:37:39 pm »

Why making drink is so simple? Only a plant and an empty barrel to produce drink, even without water.

But IRL it is not enough just to put water and plant together, there are also fermentation, filtration, pasteurization, and it all take time. The main point is that making drink in a still is too fast.

The suggestion is the following: to invent a new zone wine-cellar where half-finished drinks are stored in barrels and ferment. One may ask, why a new zone but not a new type of stockpile. That's because different types of drink should be stored in different containers currently the only one available is a barrel. So different types of them could be invented: bottles, jerrycans, special big barrels for some drinks. Last one may also be built as water source, see http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58756.msg1309013#msg1309013 and http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55267.msg1189965#msg1189965 .

The quality of drink may depend on the material and quality of the container it is contained in, for example, the wine from an oak barrel is better then wine from metal one.

Drink may also have age parameter nobles would be happy to drink 30-years whiskey.
Logged

MagicGuigz

  • Bay Watcher
  • [magical]
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 06:42:27 pm »

I don't know, I think drink production is already hard enough to plan.
Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 06:53:04 pm »

I don't know, I think drink production is already hard enough to plan.

... HOW exactly?  You just set a dwarf to brew drinks from plants for all eternity.  Unless you mean being able to supply enough barrels or occasionally increase warehouse space, alcohol is one of the simplest tasks in DF.

Why making drink is so simple? Only a plant and an empty barrel to produce drink, even without water.

But IRL it is not enough just to put water and plant together, there are also fermentation, filtration, pasteurization, and it all take time. The main point is that making drink in a still is too fast.

The suggestion is the following: to invent a new zone — wine-cellar — where half-finished drinks are stored in barrels and ferment. One may ask, why a new zone but not a new type of stockpile. That's because different types of drink should be stored in different containers — currently the only one available is a barrel. So different types of them could be invented: bottles, jerrycans, special big barrels for some drinks. Last one may also be built as water source, see http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58756.msg1309013#msg1309013 and http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55267.msg1189965#msg1189965 .

The quality of drink may depend on the material and quality of the container it is contained in, for example, the wine from an oak barrel is better then wine from metal one.

Drink may also have age parameter — nobles would be happy to drink 30-years whiskey.

Keep in mind that most fortresses do not last 30 years.

Still, making alcohol distillation take more time than the dwarf actually stuffing the ingredient into the still is a good idea, and I like the notion that we'd need to use some water, and I especially like having varying qualities of liquer.  It faces two problems, however...

One problem is that there will be so many people who whine about how hard it is to manage food right now (seriously?) in between complaining about how little challenge this game has because there aren't enough military threats.

The other is that this game doesn't have a system to force you to care about your dwarves  or their quality of life right now.  There is little point in having good and bad quality booze without dwarves that will care whether they get the good or the bad stuff, and this is the same problem that's being talked about in a solid food thread.

Quite simply, the game needs an overhaul of the "Happiness" system before we can get anything nice for our dwarves.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

marcusbjol

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 01:48:52 am »

Brewing was a "black magic" (as in no one understood it) until we understood bacteria, cleanliness, tempertaure control, etc.  SCA (Where people try to recreate items using historical methods) brewing is specifically exempted from historical practices so a safe beverage can be made. 

Besides, our obsession to how old liqueur is a recent development historically.  Aging liquor decreases in volume because it evaporates (very slowly) even in a barrel.  Aging hard liquors only takes place in wood barrels; so yes, that 5 year old scotch you have sitting in your liquor cabinet for 10 years is still only 5 years old.

It would be more interesting to separate the fermenting from the distilling process.  Distilling improves the quality of liquor.  Brandy is distilled wine.  Fermented grain mash (precursor to beer) is Whisky, and so on.

Winecellers are are the result of combining of a lowish stable tempurature, no sunlight, and no vibrations.  None of this needs to be explicitly defined in a workshop.  A stockpile with these works perfectly. 
And for the love of god, we do not need yet another specialized container type.
Logged

Nil Eyeglazed

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 03:08:06 am »

Keep in mind that most fortresses do not last 30 years.

Actually, if somebody could make a decent reason to make 30 year old dwarven whisky a useful commodity (don't think happiness modifications are really going to be enough here, not without a more serious and creative overhaul than I've seen suggested), then that would actually be a reason to take a fortress to 30 years-- and more, serve as a trade commodity that is actually scarce.
Logged
He he he.  Yeah, it almost looks done...  alas...  those who are in your teens, hold on until your twenties...  those in your twenties, your thirties...  others, cling to life as you are able...<P>It should be pretty fun though.

FreakyCheeseMan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2010, 01:37:29 am »

I wouldn't mind making it multi-step. Brewing beer/wine might be really easy- water, barrel, plant matter, time. Hard liquor would be harder- you'd need a still, which would require a glassworks, or importing it. Specific drinks might need more yet- wooden barrels, or a freezing biome for applejack.

On the one hand, booze has to be simple. Dwarves *need* it. You can't require it to be a difficult and complicated industry, because it would need to be so in every fort- including the fort built into a perfect glacier, just to prove it could be.

HHowever, it should have the potential to be complicated, and something you can get more value from with more time and effort. Sure, you can get your dwarves industriously drunk with the kind of booze you'd make in a prison toilet, but if you put more effort in, you can get an industry that keeps your dwarves happy and gives you a valuable trade good.
Logged
What do you really need to turn Elves into Dwarves? Mutation could make them grow a beard; insanity effects could make them evil-minded, aggressive, tree-hating cave dwellers, and instant, full necrosis of their lower legs could make them short.

RCIX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2010, 02:29:54 am »

And for the love of god, we do not need yet another specialized container type.
Why not use flasks? as i understand it, that's often used for the stuff.
Logged
Quote from: Naz
Quote from: dwarfhoplite
I suggest you don't think too much what you build and where. When ever you need something, build it as close as possible to where you need it. that way your fortress will eventually become epic
Because god knows your duke will demand a kitten silo in his office.
Quote from: Necro910
Dwarf Fortress: Where you aren't hallucinating.

TolyK

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nowan Ilfideme
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2010, 11:31:12 am »

I think that some things in this don't quite work, I'm afraid:
  • Brewing takes time, so there would be NO booze at times unless you prepared well (i.e. embarking with tons of it, getting a well) ... NOT very newb-friendly.
  • Brewing would take much more stuff (reagents) if it were realistic, again turning away newbies.
So sadly I think the current system should stay, or be changed radically in a different way.
Logged
My Mafia Stats
just do whatevery tolyK and blame it as a bastard mod
Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.

BaronVonBullshit

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2010, 12:49:26 pm »

I think that some things in this don't quite work, I'm afraid:
  • Brewing takes time, so there would be NO booze at times unless you prepared well (i.e. embarking with tons of it, getting a well) ... NOT very newb-friendly.
  • Brewing would take much more stuff (reagents) if it were realistic, again turning away newbies.
So sadly I think the current system should stay, or be changed radically in a different way.
I think the skill curve for this game is so steep at this point that it's really impossible to turn away newbies any more than it does already.

And I like the idea of more complicated brewing. Just an idea, perhaps some plants could be squeezed into juice so that you have some back up drink if your booze production slows down.
Logged

Kurouma

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2010, 07:21:05 am »

I agree, but also would like to point out (as already in the food megathread recently) that it more the variety of alcohols produced from the one reaction that doesn't quite work. Distilled spirits and beers from the same process? Beers and ales are simple to make compared to distilled spirits. The process could be made more believable by
a) Keeping the current reaction for simple alcohols.
b) Introducing a separate building or process for distilling the (much more valuable) spirits from the already-produced cheap booze.
c) Introducing flavour (!) with caravans carrying said 30-year-aged whiskey and other such luxury products - as already mentioned.
Logged

TolyK

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nowan Ilfideme
    • View Profile
Re: Drink industry
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2010, 03:16:40 pm »

*my stuff*
I think the skill curve for this game is so steep at this point that it's really impossible to turn away newbies any more than it does already.

And I like the idea of more complicated brewing. Just an idea, perhaps some plants could be squeezed into juice so that you have some back up drink if your booze production slows down.
well, yeah, i guess you're right. juice would be very good, actually.

I agree, but also would like to point out (as already in the food megathread recently) that it more the variety of alcohols produced from the one reaction that doesn't quite work. Distilled spirits and beers from the same process? Beers and ales are simple to make compared to distilled spirits. The process could be made more believable by
a) Keeping the current reaction for simple alcohols.
b) Introducing a separate building or process for distilling the (much more valuable) spirits from the already-produced cheap booze.
c) Introducing flavour (!) with caravans carrying said 30-year-aged whiskey and other such luxury products - as already mentioned.
yep. agree completely. and sell several barrels of your long-aged wine (from your first stocks) to the caravan for almost all their stuff.
Logged
My Mafia Stats
just do whatevery tolyK and blame it as a bastard mod
Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.